vpFREE2 Forums

Coast vs Stations Casinos

#1

Am I the only person blown away by these comments?

I guess it's just 'too bad' for those of us who play $ and under VP. The
trend these days clearly favors Mr. Dancer and other "higher denomination
advantage players". Please save your breath and stop trying to convince us that
the state of VP isn't as bad as we know it is. It is bad and getting worse.

Whose side are you on, Mr. Dancer? Not mine. Not the average advantage
player. Your praise and suggestions for further casino changes will only
benefit the few who, like you, have extraordinarily large bankrolls. In my
opinion, your future success comes at the expense of the rest of us. And the
amazing thing is...you don't mind telling us so!

I am just stunned at your comments.

RoBar

**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. Go to AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

mr dancer is interested in selling his books and not the vp player. the side effect is that the thier are less playable games even f/p deuces played perfectly averages 7.per hour. one can work for burger king and get paid more without financial risk. the majority of us on this site play within .25% of perfect play enjoy the games and get some comps and have fun. I play close to perfect play within .25% to get comps and I play live poker for some extra income

RoBar1521@aol.com wrote: Am I the only person blown away by these comments?

I guess it's just 'too bad' for those of us who play $ and under VP. The
trend these days clearly favors Mr. Dancer and other "higher denomination
advantage players". Please save your breath and stop trying to convince us that
the state of VP isn't as bad as we know it is. It is bad and getting worse.

Whose side are you on, Mr. Dancer? Not mine. Not the average advantage
player. Your praise and suggestions for further casino changes will only
benefit the few who, like you, have extraordinarily large bankrolls. In my
opinion, your future success comes at the expense of the rest of us. And the
amazing thing is...you don't mind telling us so!

I am just stunned at your comments.

RoBar

**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. Go to AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#3

RoBar slammed me with: Whose side are you on, Mr. Dancer? Not mine.
Not the average advantage
player.

Actually I'm on the side of these players which is why I posted. I'm
trying to help these players understand the way it is. Over-100% vp is
definitely drying up. Those who limit themselves to playing these games
will find the opportunities shrinking and the competition among players
growing more fierce. If you want to succeed, you're going to have to
break out of that mold and play slightly less than 100% games with good
promotions. This requires more scouting, and playing with a higher
degree of accuracy, but the opportunities are there, even for quarter
and dollar players.

If you think the situation is a lot easier for higher stakes players,
think again. There is severe competition at all levels and casinos are
simply not interested in supporting professional players. Having a
larger bankroll does provide additional options, to be sure, but you
must still find the games and succeed at them better than other players.

Advantage play will continue to be a "survival of the fittest" game. If
they take away one option (which they will on a regular basis), then
take advantage of another (there are many). If you cannot figure out how
to do this, perhaps you are not one of the fittest.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

#4

I am so glad to hear you say that. Less than positive VP has been
very good to me. :slight_smile:

RoBar slammed me with: Whose side are you on, Mr. Dancer? Not
mine. Not the average advantage player.

"Bob Dancer" replied:

Actually I'm on the side of these players which is why I posted.
I'm trying to help these players understand the way it is.
Over-100% vp is definitely drying up. Those who limit themselves
to playing these games will find the opportunities shrinking and
the competition among players growing more fierce. If you want to
succeed, you're going to have to break out of that mold and play
slightly less than 100% games with good promotions. This requires
more scouting, and playing with a higher degree of accuracy, but
the opportunities are there, even for quarter and dollar players.

If you think the situation is a lot easier for higher stakes
players, think again. There is severe competition at all levels
and casinos are simply not interested in supporting professional
players. Having a larger bankroll does provide additional
options, to be sure, but you must still find the games and
succeed at them better than other players.

Advantage play will continue to be a "survival of the fittest"
game. If they take away one option (which they will on a regular
basis), then take advantage of another (there are many). If you
cannot figure out how to do this, perhaps you are not one of the
fittest.

Bob Dancer

#5

I drafted this email several weeks ago and never sent it, but now with the
true extent of the implications of Station's changes revealing itself in all
its hot, steaming, coiled brown glory, I think it's time to revisit the
issue.

···

***

You know, I'm reluctant to get in on the Dancer-bashing that goes on here on
a weekly basis, but I'm 100% in agreement with this reaction. Bob, with all
due respect, you're way off base here. I don't see how this is any kind of
a net gain for low-denomination players.

And let me ask a question: if casinos make it so that low-denomination
players have almost nothing to show for their action - how many do you
think will graduate to your level of
negative-games-plus-slot-club-benefits-plus-promotions degree of analysis?

If casinos continue to chase off advantage players, treat us like
second-class citizens and otherwise tell us "we don't want your business,"
how long do you think people will continue to put in the effort to learn the
games profitably?

How long do you think they'll continue to attend your seminars, read your
books and buy your software?

Do you really think there's a market in that once all the quarter plays dry
up?

I'm not going to say that this is the end of positive VP in Vegas - but in
the two years since I moved here, I haven't seen a single development that
benefits a quarter FPDW player. And Station - with the biggest
concentration of FPDW games in the state - halving the comp rate and
shredding mailers is the worst omen yet. The endgame isn't the end of
positive video poker. The endgame is keeping the positive video poker
(mostly for PR reasons) and excluding them from all comps (like the Hard
Rock did) *and* excluding them from all promotions (like the Palms does).

It makes perfect sense from the perspective of the house (if you don't count
intangibles like goodwill, word of mouth and ancillary/companion
non-advantage play), but pretending that this is a net positive for players
is, to be diplomatic, disingenuous. It's a net positive for a very, very
small subset of the population and a great big kick in the roulettes for the
majority of us.

You may cheer the changes at Station, Bob, but most of us don't have the
stack to risk large amounts of money on negative-expectation games in the
hopes of squeezing a profit out of the margins and the value-added. For the
rest of us, this is a great big turd sandwich. On pumpernickel.

I hate pumpernickel.

On Feb 13, 2008 8:31 AM, <RoBar1521@aol.com> wrote:

  Am I the only person blown away by these comments?

I guess it's just 'too bad' for those of us who play $ and under VP. The
trend these days clearly favors Mr. Dancer and other "higher denomination
advantage players". Please save your breath and stop trying to convince us
that
the state of VP isn't as bad as we know it is. It is bad and getting
worse.

Whose side are you on, Mr. Dancer? Not mine. Not the average advantage
player. Your praise and suggestions for further casino changes will only
benefit the few who, like you, have extraordinarily large bankrolls. In my

opinion, your future success comes at the expense of the rest of us. And
the
amazing thing is...you don't mind telling us so!

I am just stunned at your comments.

RoBar

--
Jay Fenster
Open Road Publishing
* * *
Author, Open Road's Best of Las Vegas

Visit Open Road's Best of Las Vegas Blog
http://www.thebestoflasvegas.us

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#6

Let's stop the patty bickering and name calling. We are here to find better playing and earning opportunities, whether it be in expected return, comps, offers, etc. The knowledge revolution allows both sides (players and casinos) to fully know what a given game will earn. It would be silly not to believe that both sides will fully utilize this info, the casinos to increase their bottom line and th eplayers to increase theirs.

Jay Fenster <gambling@swina.com> wrote: I drafted this email several weeks ago and never sent it, but now with the
true extent of the implications of Station's changes revealing itself in all
its hot, steaming, coiled brown glory, I think it's time to revisit the
issue.

···

***

You know, I'm reluctant to get in on the Dancer-bashing that goes on here on
a weekly basis, but I'm 100% in agreement with this reaction. Bob, with all
due respect, you're way off base here. I don't see how this is any kind of
a net gain for low-denomination players.

And let me ask a question: if casinos make it so that low-denomination
players have almost nothing to show for their action - how many do you
think will graduate to your level of
negative-games-plus-slot-club-benefits-plus-promotions degree of analysis?

If casinos continue to chase off advantage players, treat us like
second-class citizens and otherwise tell us "we don't want your business,"
how long do you think people will continue to put in the effort to learn the
games profitably?

How long do you think they'll continue to attend your seminars, read your
books and buy your software?

Do you really think there's a market in that once all the quarter plays dry
up?

I'm not going to say that this is the end of positive VP in Vegas - but in
the two years since I moved here, I haven't seen a single development that
benefits a quarter FPDW player. And Station - with the biggest
concentration of FPDW games in the state - halving the comp rate and
shredding mailers is the worst omen yet. The endgame isn't the end of
positive video poker. The endgame is keeping the positive video poker
(mostly for PR reasons) and excluding them from all comps (like the Hard
Rock did) *and* excluding them from all promotions (like the Palms does).

It makes perfect sense from the perspective of the house (if you don't count
intangibles like goodwill, word of mouth and ancillary/companion
non-advantage play), but pretending that this is a net positive for players
is, to be diplomatic, disingenuous. It's a net positive for a very, very
small subset of the population and a great big kick in the roulettes for the
majority of us.

You may cheer the changes at Station, Bob, but most of us don't have the
stack to risk large amounts of money on negative-expectation games in the
hopes of squeezing a profit out of the margins and the value-added. For the
rest of us, this is a great big turd sandwich. On pumpernickel.

I hate pumpernickel.

On Feb 13, 2008 8:31 AM, <RoBar1521@aol.com> wrote:

> Am I the only person blown away by these comments?
>
> I guess it's just 'too bad' for those of us who play $ and under VP. The
> trend these days clearly favors Mr. Dancer and other "higher denomination
> advantage players". Please save your breath and stop trying to convince us
> that
> the state of VP isn't as bad as we know it is. It is bad and getting
> worse.
>
> Whose side are you on, Mr. Dancer? Not mine. Not the average advantage
> player. Your praise and suggestions for further casino changes will only
> benefit the few who, like you, have extraordinarily large bankrolls. In my
>
> opinion, your future success comes at the expense of the rest of us. And
> the
> amazing thing is...you don't mind telling us so!
>
> I am just stunned at your comments.
>
> RoBar
>
>

--
Jay Fenster
Open Road Publishing
* * *
Author, Open Road's Best of Las Vegas

Visit Open Road's Best of Las Vegas Blog
http://www.thebestoflasvegas.us

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]