This is a golden opportunity for Coast Casinos to
sweeten their offerings to lure all the players who
are disgruntled with Stations and Fiesta.
I guess the cost of going private made the Brothers
F greedy.
Coast vs Stations Casinos
George Lee wrote: This is a golden opportunity for Coast Casinos to
sweeten their offerings to lure all the players who
are disgruntled with Stations and Fiesta. I guess the cost of going
private made the Brothers F greedy.
Greedy? I think Station is being generous. They have effectively created
a cashback slot club from a comp only slot club. This is GREAT news as
many players find their stash of Station points to be slightly better
than useless. Many Optimum Play machine players had more points than
they knew what to do with. In my opinion, getting cash at half the
previous rate is better than having the full amount be essentially
useless.
For those players who understand the opportunities of playing larger
denomination machines, this is a HUGE dividend. Overall, this combined
change will create a LOT more play at Station because it's a much more
generous slot club than it was before. The increased play by
higher-denomination advantage players will more than make up for the
diminished play of lower-denomination advantage players.
It would surprise me greatly if Coast saw this as a "golden opportunity
to sweeten their offerings". More likely they see it as an opportunity
to reduce cashback on the 100% machines without a loss in business. It
wouldn't surprise me if Coast moved from $2 a point to $3 a point on
these machines. Businesswise they would be rather remiss if they didn't.
People here keep harping on the 0.04% comp rate. Presumably everybody
here can organize their time well enough to only play on the frequent 5x
point days. And instead of comps, they can now get cash. This is
WONDERFUL. The Fertitta brothers should be thanked profusely.
Bob Dancer
For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com
Greedy? I think Station is being generous. They have effectively
created
a cashback slot club from a comp only slot club. This is GREAT
news as
many players find their stash of Station points to be slightly
better
than useless. Many Optimum Play machine players had more points
than
they knew what to do with. In my opinion, getting cash at half the
previous rate is better than having the full amount be essentially
useless.
I suppose it's useless if you play $25 Hundred Play in marathon
sessions during 5X point days, slamming in $30 million in coin-in in
order to make worthwhile a .000000000000000000007 percent
theoretical advantage, because at the end of such sessions, you have
enough comps to feed Bolivia. I agree that cashback is an
improvement in this case. But what about all us mere mortals who
only want to move a paltry $10,000 or so per day through the
machines? Are we all that thrilled with four bucks as our reward,
whether that's cash or comps? Yes, we might get more than that on
multiple point days---but not all of us find it possible to play on
those days. Don't forget that we used to get 5X 0.1666, not 5X
0.0416. Eighty dollars in comps is better than twenty dollars in
cashback. Forty dollars in comps (what we still got on 5X days with
$2/point, on $10K action) is STILL better than twenty dollars
cashback, unless you never eat in the casino's restuarants.
For those players who understand the opportunities of playing
larger
denomination machines, this is a HUGE dividend. Overall, this
combined
change will create a LOT more play at Station because it's a much
more
generous slot club than it was before.
Let's see. They now pay half what they used to in comps, which is in
turn half what they paid not long before that. That's "more
generous". Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Let's not forget that the
points could be discounted for use at the buffet, which a lot of us
$10K unworthies like to eat at---for instance, a 50% point discount
available at the buffet means cashback is worth HALF the equivalent
amount in points, if that's what you're going to use 'em for.
Bob, I'm beginning to wonder just where you're coming from. You fly
to the defense of the casinos with unseemly haste.
George Lee wrote: This is a golden opportunity for Coast Casinos to
sweeten their offerings to lure all the players who
are disgruntled with Stations and Fiesta. I guess the cost of going
private made the Brothers F greedy.Greedy? I think Station is being generous. They have effectively
created
a cashback slot club from a comp only slot club. This is GREAT news
as
many players find their stash of Station points to be slightly
better
than useless. Many Optimum Play machine players had more points than
they knew what to do with. In my opinion, getting cash at half the
previous rate is better than having the full amount be essentially
useless.For those players who understand the opportunities of playing larger
denomination machines, this is a HUGE dividend. Overall, this
combined
change will create a LOT more play at Station because it's a much
more
generous slot club than it was before. The increased play by
higher-denomination advantage players will more than make up for the
diminished play of lower-denomination advantage players.It would surprise me greatly if Coast saw this as a "golden
opportunity
to sweeten their offerings". More likely they see it as an
opportunity
to reduce cashback on the 100% machines without a loss in business.
It
wouldn't surprise me if Coast moved from $2 a point to $3 a point on
these machines. Businesswise they would be rather remiss if they
didn't.
People here keep harping on the 0.04% comp rate. Presumably
everybody
here can organize their time well enough to only play on the
frequent 5x
point days. And instead of comps, they can now get cash. This is
WONDERFUL. The Fertitta brothers should be thanked profusely.Bob Dancer
For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video
poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com
Bob,
Perhaps you could apply a bit of the "play" analysis you're famous
for to this Station Casinos "business" decision. After all, there
are only 7 Station Casinos, they only have so many Optimum machines,
the denominations are known, etc.
If my math is right, and if the database is correct for the number of
Optimums and denominations at each location, then there are 70
Optimums with $1 games, 8 Optimums with .50 games and 46 Optimums
with .25 games between the 7 casinos. Only 124 machines total.
If these machines were played 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, at 800
hands an hour, they would generate $3 billion coin-in. At the
current (soon to be old) rate of $2/point this results in 1.5 billion
points. At 600 points per comp $, this results in $2.5 million comp
dollars. Going to $4/point would save Station Casinos $1.25 million
per year, if the machines were played at max coin every minute of
every day.
$1.25M is a lot of money to me, and maybe also to you, but just how
important is it to Station Casinos? I guess enough so that they're
willing to risk the negative good will the point reduction may
generate.
I doubt if it is enough to offset the points turned into cash that
you indicate will now happen.
Bill
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bdancer@...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tralfamidorgooglycrackers"
<tralfamidorgooglycrackers@...> wrote:
Let's see. They now pay half what they used to in comps, which is in
turn half what they paid not long before that. That's "more
generous". Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Let's not forget that the
points could be discounted for use at the buffet, which a lot of us
$10K unworthies like to eat at---for instance, a 50% point discount
available at the buffet means cashback is worth HALF the equivalent
amount in points, if that's what you're going to use 'em for.
I no longer consider Las Vegas to be a video poker stop for me. It's a
poker stop. The money is better in the small blind no-limit games than
in video poker--with a hell of a lot less variance.
Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against players looking for cheap
vacations vis-a-vis video poker, or recreational players out to have a
little fun on the cheap.
But I'm a strictly for profit advantage gambler(pardon the
redundancy). I juat spent several months in Montana where my expenses
ran about $1800 a month for room, board, travel, misceleaneous. I
considered the first hour I played every day as paying the nut. It was
a trade off.
If I'm in downtown Las Vegas and the choice is the dollar 10/7 with
the .3125% CB at the 4 Queens or the 1/2 blind no-limit game at the
Golden Nugget, well, you'll find me in the Nugget Poker Room. I'll pay
my own nut to do it.
I'm not knocking the state of video poker today. I just deal with the
reality of it. I was able to cash in on the Montana play, an oddball
game that no one had ever heard of before much less published any
information on, because of the considerable time I spent teaching
myself the mathematics of the game. It's like Dan Paymar's quote of
Louis Pasteur, "chance favors the prepared mind."
No one can take my knowledge and experience from me. And I will
continue to use it in looking for video poker opportunities.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bdancer@...> wrote:
Greedy? I think Station is being generous. They have effectively
created
a cashback slot club from a comp only slot club. This is GREAT news
as
many players find their stash of Station points to be slightly
better
than useless. Many Optimum Play machine players had more points than
they knew what to do with. In my opinion, getting cash at half the
previous rate is better than having the full amount be essentially
useless.For those players who understand the opportunities of playing larger
denomination machines, this is a HUGE dividend. Overall, this
combined
change will create a LOT more play at Station because it's a much
more
generous slot club than it was before. The increased play by
higher-denomination advantage players will more than make up for the
diminished play of lower-denomination advantage players.It would surprise me greatly if Coast saw this as a "golden
opportunity
to sweeten their offerings". More likely they see it as an
opportunity
to reduce cashback on the 100% machines without a loss in business.
It
wouldn't surprise me if Coast moved from $2 a point to $3 a point on
these machines. Businesswise they would be rather remiss if they
didn't.
People here keep harping on the 0.04% comp rate. Presumably
everybody
here can organize their time well enough to only play on the
frequent 5x
point days. And instead of comps, they can now get cash. This is
WONDERFUL. The Fertitta brothers should be thanked profusely.
Is this a joke???
I think the market will determine whether they are considered
generous or not. If we look at the best CB from stations vs. coast
casinos for positive VP, it appears we may occasionally find stations
with .04*7 or .3% CB. The coast casinos have given up to .05*8 or .4%
CB.
Looks to me like stations may not be all that "generous" and I will
hold that "profuse thanks" for now.
The real question will be how many GOOD multipliers will show up in
the future. If it's gets into a "mine is bigger than yours" contest,
then we could all benefit. It will be important for us all to
consider some negative games over restricted point games. With full
CB and BB considerations they may become better overall plays.
Dick
Greedy? I think Station is being generous. They have effectively
created
a cashback slot club from a comp only slot club.
Actually it is not so great. They are, in fact, doing nothing but
responding to the competition. Good, Bad and Ugly are subjective
terms. In this situation, Their club sucks. Not because they
are giving something to people playing a positive game, but
because when compared to other casinos, they are giving less.
This is GREAT news as
many players find their stash of Station points to be slightly
better than useless.
Unless something changed while I was away, there were two very
good ways to use station points like cash...
1. Travel bucks. Big drawback... 1000 pts per dollar
2. Bingo. Buy bingo cards. I suspect your return would be
somewhere between 80 and 85 percent, but if you have a few
million pts gathering dust, it could be a lot of money if you
are willing to endure bingo to do it.
Even so, the switch to Cash Back is an improvment. But when
they turn right around and slash points, it can hardly be
considered an overall gain for hhe consumer.
I have ceased all play at the Staions and I suggest all others
do the same until they reconsider their choice to offer far
less than dozens of other casinos here in LV. Don't forget,
they also trashed their mailers.
QuadZilla
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "what7do7you7want"
<what7do7you7want@...> wrote:
Unless something changed while I was away, there were two very
good ways to use station points like cash...1. Travel bucks. Big drawback... 1000 pts per dollar
2. Bingo. Buy bingo cards. I suspect your return would be
somewhere between 80 and 85 percent, but if you have a few
million pts gathering dust, it could be a lot of money if you
are willing to endure bingo to do it.
A bingo session takes only an hour. And with the electronic units of
today all you have to do is sit there and look stupid until the unit
beeps then yell "Bingooooooooo!!!!!"
So you can use the time to read the newspaper, balance your
checkbook, read a book, do some math on that big fat juicy VP play
you just found, even bring your laptop in and do your e-mail or even
practice for that big fat juicy VP play you just found.
I found a profitable situation at the Plaza when they first opened
their bingo hall. And I figured it was going on in other bingo halls
in town. I even imagined that VP pros were using their Station
points to buy bingo packs.
Then a couple of years ago the subject of Stations bingo packs came
up on VP free. Someone was projecting on what the cap would be for
bingo packs in a session. Bob Dancer replied to this post with the
correct information. That cinched it for me. I figured Bob had this
information for one reason: He was converting his points to cash via
bingo.
The situation at the Plaza was the Bonanza Coverall, the last game of
each session. At preset you had to hit a coverall in 48 numbers or
less to win the progressive which started at $20,000. According to
the Plaza advertising all the money collected for this game was going
into the progressive. The number moved up every session. After one
week, if it hadn't hit the number was moved up to 49, a week later
50, etc.
I jumped in when the number hit 52 and played every session until the
Bonanza was hit. I bought 4 of the cheapest packs and got 3 free
packs, so I was playing the main session with 42 cards for a cost of
$16. Free packs are a bingo hall trick to put more cheap packs in
play against the more expensive packs. Hence, avoid the expensive
packs. Then I bought 20 3-on Bonanza packs for $15. This gave me 60
indiviaual bingo cards for the game. I put the whole thing in an
electronic unit, rental fee $1. So each session cost me $32.
The chances of a coverall in 48 numbers is over 700,000. But at 52
numbers it's only 60,458. And by this time the progressive was
always well above $30,000. At 53 numbers it's only 33,081 and the
progressive would be approaching $40,000. The Bonanza never went
past, repeat, never went past 53 numbers. At 8 sessions per day I
never seen it go past two days.
This isn't exact math but at 52 numbers my chances of hitting the
Bonanza were around one in a thousand playing 60 cards; about 550 at
53 numbers. Per the average, the cost at 52 numbers was at $15,000,
about $8,000 at 53 numbers. The progressive would be over $30,000.
There was another variable: The consolation prize. The two slowest
sessions had a $250 consolation. Two had a $500 consolation. The
rest had $1000 consolatons. I got my share, so this cut well into
the cost.
I counted players every session and collected statistics on my
performance. Surprisingly, my average for making Bingos in regular
session games and the coveralls were right at the same. Right at 1
in 40 overall. It varied acccording to the number of players.
I avoided the Hot Ball progressive unless the price was right. The
Hot Ball worked like this: Validate each pack for the hot ball for
$1; my cost $7. They draw a ball before the session started and if
you bingoed on that number you got the Hot Ball progressive. When
hot balls get high it sucks more players into the room so I jumped my
odds of bingoing up to 50. When you make a bingo the last number can
be any one of 75. 8 games per session qualified for the Hot Ball.
So the breakeven point for me was $3300. I didn't buy unless it was
$4,000+.
There are two main statistics you want to watch in a bingo hall.
1. How many calls are made once the bingo is possible?
On a regular bingo if two Bs, two Ns, two Gs and two Os have been
called the bingo is not possible yet. In this situation if the bingo
is constantly going on the first I ball call, forget the joint. You
are competing against two many players. The more calls you get in
this spot the better.
2. How often do you get cased and how many calls do you get?
Cased means you are just one number to go. If it goes on the number
that puts you one away, it doesn't count. Count only cases in which
you get a call to win. Hitting the bingo when you are one to go has
a high variance, but the variance for getting cased is much lower.
How often you get cased is a huge consideration. The more calls you
average the better. If you hit the bingo one in ten cases you are
doing pretty good. If you are not getting cassd forget the joint.
You are competing against too many players
Did I ever hit the Bonanza Progressive? No. But between Bonanza
consolations, regular coveralls, and regular session bingos I showed
a $4500 win. I was cased up for the big money many times. My number
just never came in. Damn the luck.
Station is offering less for Optimum players and trying to offer more
for everyone else - that is from corporate - at Red Rock forget about
getting a discretionary comp unless you are a whale. The other
Stations are better for comps because there is not the pressure on
hosts not to issue them
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "what7do7you7want"
<what7do7you7want@...> wrote:
···
> Greedy? I think Station is being generous. They have effectively
created
> a cashback slot club from a comp only slot club.Actually it is not so great. They are, in fact, doing nothing but
responding to the competition. Good, Bad and Ugly are subjective
terms. In this situation, Their club sucks. Not because they
are giving something to people playing a positive game, but
because when compared to other casinos, they are giving less.> This is GREAT news as
> many players find their stash of Station points to be slightly
better than useless.Unless something changed while I was away, there were two very
good ways to use station points like cash...1. Travel bucks. Big drawback... 1000 pts per dollar
2. Bingo. Buy bingo cards. I suspect your return would be
somewhere between 80 and 85 percent, but if you have a few
million pts gathering dust, it could be a lot of money if you
are willing to endure bingo to do it.Even so, the switch to Cash Back is an improvment. But when
they turn right around and slash points, it can hardly be
considered an overall gain for hhe consumer.I have ceased all play at the Staions and I suggest all others
do the same until they reconsider their choice to offer far
less than dozens of other casinos here in LV. Don't forget,
they also trashed their mailers.QuadZilla