vpFREE2 Forums

Clearing up my comments on autoshuffler BJ games

A couple of posters have pointed out, correctly, that dealing the
first hand out of a freshly shuffled six-deck shoe is no better or
worse than dealing the second, or fifty-third, or whatever, since the
hand given to the player is a function of all the combinations
available in 312 cards whether or not those cards are truly in play
(as they would not be in a conventional shoe). I misstated my
argument, sacrifcing clarity for the sake of brevity. Here's what I
SHOULD have said:

In any negative-expectation game, the only way a player can hope to
get the advantage is to experience a burst of luck in the "short term"
(and then leave, presumably). Negative expectation games that have
volatile results and high payouts tend to have higher house advantages
than non-volatile, even-money-payout games. This is because is it
harder to "get lucky" at a BJ or baccarat table where it takes several
wins in a row, parlaying, or an unusual preponderance of wins in a
session to book a winner. Contrast this with slots, VP, or Keno.
Now, the house DOESN'T want heavily skewed results in any of the
low-volatily, even-money games. The house would ideally like to
subtract .5% (or whatever) from everybody's bet without even dealing
the cards, and do that over and over until everyone's broke (since
this is the identical effect of actually dealing the cards). In other
words, the "flatter" the results curve, the safer it is for the house.
Now, imagine a blackjack game where the shoe fluctuated back and forth
between: Players win 90% of the time, then House wins 90% of the time.
The casino would get CRUSHED in such a game, even with a healthy
inherent house advantage, because gamblers tend to bet more when
they're winning. A player's winning streak is usually deadlier to the
house than a house winning streak is to the player, for the simple
reaon that the house CAN'T QUIT when the player is hot; the player CAN
quit when the house is hot. Therefore the house doesn't WANT the game
of BJ to be volatile and streaky, this being the primary way it can
lose money fast.
The effect of autoshufflers is to make it impossible to reach a
"positive" deck condition, which while classically benefiting the card
counter, also benefits the average joe (though not as much since he
fails to adjust his strategy). That it also makes it impossible to
reach a "negative" deck condition is not as important, for the reasons
stated above.
So the insidiousness of the autoshufflers is actually that of
"smoothing out" the play of the game so that the house can grind away
at its customers without as much danger of skewed results.
(Try this analogy: At the craps table, 3 out of 36 rolls are a ten:
5-5, 6-4, 4-6. In 360 rolls, then, the ten comes up 30 times. Which do
you think the house would rather have happen during these 360 rolls:
The ten comes up every twelfth roll or so, or sometime during the 360
rolls it comes up 30 times in a row??)

Now, imagine a blackjack game where the shoe fluctuated back and forth
between: Players win 90% of the time, then House wins 90% of the time.
The casino would get CRUSHED in such a game, even with a healthy
inherent house advantage, because gamblers tend to bet more when
they're winning.

It doesn't matter when the players "tend" to bet. If the house has the
advantage, there is no betting system that can give the player a long
term advantage.

Streakiness can impact risk, but not EV. This means that a player who
is trying to buck the odds may be better off to play high payoff wagers
like single numbers at the roulette wheel, rather than craps pass bets.

The effect of autoshufflers is to make it impossible to reach a
"positive" deck condition, which while classically benefiting the card
counter, also benefits the average joe (though not as much since he
fails to adjust his strategy).

Wrong. A card counter benefits by varying bets in correlation with
the favorability of the deck, as indicated by the count. If a counter
and a flat-betting basic strategy player sit at the same table, the
BS player will derive no benefit from the fluctuations which aid the
card counter.

So the insidiousness of the autoshufflers is actually that of
"smoothing out" the play of the game so that the house can grind away
at its customers without as much danger of skewed results.

Autoshufflers hurt card counters, but have no impact on basic
strategy players.

Now, if the dealer counts cards and intentionally shuffles when the
deck becomes favorable, then this would impact BS players as well
as card counters.

···

On Wednesday 19 November 2003 07:48 pm, mkl54321 wrote:

In any negative-expectation game, the only way a player can hope to
get the advantage is to experience a burst of luck in the "short term"
(and then leave, presumably).

This may be but it's hard for me to believe that this concept works to
the detriment of a casino. So long as the casino keeps the seats
filled it will meet its long term expectation. The fact that one
players lucks out and wins is inconsequential.

Negative expectation games that have

volatile results and high payouts tend to have higher house advantages
than non-volatile, even-money-payout games. This is because is it
harder to "get lucky" at a BJ or baccarat table where it takes several
wins in a row, parlaying, or an unusual preponderance of wins in a
session to book a winner. Contrast this with slots, VP, or Keno.
Now, the house DOESN'T want heavily skewed results in any of the
low-volatily, even-money games. The house would ideally like to
subtract .5% (or whatever) from everybody's bet without even dealing
the cards, and do that over and over until everyone's broke (since
this is the identical effect of actually dealing the cards). In other
words, the "flatter" the results curve, the safer it is for the house.
Now, imagine a blackjack game where the shoe fluctuated back and forth
between: Players win 90% of the time, then House wins 90% of the time.
The casino would get CRUSHED in such a game, even with a healthy
inherent house advantage, because gamblers tend to bet more when
they're winning. A player's winning streak is usually deadlier to the
house than a house winning streak is to the player, for the simple
reaon that the house CAN'T QUIT when the player is hot; the player CAN
quit when the house is hot. Therefore the house doesn't WANT the game
of BJ to be volatile and streaky, this being the primary way it can
lose money fast.

I'm not sure that this makes sense either... I don't see how the
steakiness/volatility/whatever of a game affects the casino's return.
The casino grinds out its' edge over many, many hours of many, many
hands of many, many people playing. The fact that the casino "CAN'T
QUIT" actually works to the casino's benefit so long as it can keep
the chairs warm and the bets flowing. It will reach the expected
return.

The effect of autoshufflers is to make it impossible to reach a
"positive" deck condition, which while classically benefiting the card
counter, also benefits the average joe (though not as much since he
fails to adjust his strategy). That it also makes it impossible to
reach a "negative" deck condition is not as important, for the reasons
stated above.
So the insidiousness of the autoshufflers is actually that of
"smoothing out" the play of the game so that the house can grind away
at its customers without as much danger of skewed results.
(Try this analogy: At the craps table, 3 out of 36 rolls are a ten:
5-5, 6-4, 4-6. In 360 rolls, then, the ten comes up 30 times. Which do
you think the house would rather have happen during these 360 rolls:
The ten comes up every twelfth roll or so, or sometime during the 360
rolls it comes up 30 times in a row??)

I guess it's true that a csm makes it impossible to determine what
cards are likely to be coming. If you are saying that streaks are
less likely with a csm, I guess I'll say I'm not sure. To what degree
do you think volatility is affected ? Obviously streaks still happen.
And if one is not able to anticipate those streaks, as a card counter
might, how does the BS player reliably take advantage of them in any
case? The BS player is as likely to ramp his bets when he should be
keeping them low and lower his bets when he should be keeping them
high. I remain sceptical. Perhaps you could point me to a
reference?

Chandler

"...there is always a well-known solution to every human problem--neat,
plausible, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

···

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 02:48:59 -0000, you wrote:

I guess it's true that a csm makes it impossible to determine what
cards are likely to be coming. If you are saying that streaks are
less likely with a csm, I guess I'll say I'm not sure. To what

degree

do you think volatility is affected ? Obviously streaks still

happen.

And if one is not able to anticipate those streaks, as a card

counter

might, how does the BS player reliably take advantage of them in any
case? The BS player is as likely to ramp his bets when he should be
keeping them low and lower his bets when he should be keeping them
high. I remain sceptical. Perhaps you could point me to a
reference?

Chandler

I probably should just bite my tongue, because I am not inclined to
get into a long discussion, but I can't resist. Other than not
liking autoshufflers, my beliefs are almost diametrically opposite of
the original poster. However, they should be taken with a grain of
salt because I am providing no proof. Peter Griffin's and Don
Schlesenger's (sp?) books are fantastic blackjack references. Anyone
would be well advised to read both books before playing blackjack
seriously or writing publicly very much about the subtleties of the
game. Read the books! Stan Wong's site (bj21.com?) among several
good blackjack groups is much more appropriate place for this
discussion.

Assuming all basic strategy play, autoshufflers have a miniscule
impact on "streakiness". The tiny impact they have would reduce
streakiness.

Autoshuffler play is almost perfectly modelled as dealing each hand
from a full shuffled shoe. The tiny difference is probably in favor
of the player.

Autoshufflers remove the cut-card effect, a small but measurable
advantage to the players.

Playing with a card counter at the table is a very slight advantage
to a noncounting player if the counter always plays one hand, due to
him "eating" bad cards.

Playing with a card counter at the table is a slight/moderate
disadvantage to a noncounting player if the counter plays multiple
hands during advantage situations, due to him "eating" good cards.

AJ