vpFREE2 Forums

Class II VP machines

#1

Apologies if this question has already been answered on the group:

Can anyone tell me if there are differences in playing strategy
between the standard (Class III) VP machines and the Class II machines
used at indian casinos?

I realize you are actually playing bingo on these machines, and that
you are playing against a single central RNG, with all the machines
linked together.

What I'd like to know is if this system creates any differences how
you would play a game. For instance, if I'm playing 9/6 JOB at an
indian casino, can I use the same strategy as I would playing 9/6 JOB
on a Class III machine in Vegas or at any Class III casino?

As a related question, can anyone tell me where I can find an
explanation of how these bingo-based machines work? I've hunted the
net some but haven't yet found one. I'm just a techie who likes to
understand how things work - for instance, I'm wondering how the
random number you pull from the RNG when you hit "deal" is used to
determine your first 5 cards and then your draw cards, since there's
the added step of creating a played out bingo card to go through first.

Thanks in advance for any help,
Doug

#2

There are no Class II machines that include a draw, according to my
research. They are all stud-like machines, the Bingo game determines
the outcome.

Oklahoma is a Class II state but the Compacts allow "real" VP
machines which work exactly like Nevada machines. Only the slots are
Bingo-based.

Washington is a Class III state but the Compacts require the VP to be
based on a lottery scratch-off ticket so they do not deal based on
each card having an equal chance of appearing but rather the final
result is set when you first deal. The draw is strictly for
entertainment; regardless of what you do the final result will be
what the scratch-off ticket determines.

There may be other states that have exceptions to the general rule
but I am not aware of any. If you want information about a particular
state you can contact the Indian Gaming Association.

Bill

···

At 09:00 AM 12/5/2005, you wrote:

Apologies if this question has already been answered on the group:

Can anyone tell me if there are differences in playing strategy
between the standard (Class III) VP machines and the Class II machines
used at indian casinos?

I realize you are actually playing bingo on these machines, and that
you are playing against a single central RNG, with all the machines
linked together.

What I'd like to know is if this system creates any differences how
you would play a game. For instance, if I'm playing 9/6 JOB at an
indian casino, can I use the same strategy as I would playing 9/6 JOB
on a Class III machine in Vegas or at any Class III casino?

As a related question, can anyone tell me where I can find an
explanation of how these bingo-based machines work? I've hunted the
net some but haven't yet found one. I'm just a techie who likes to
understand how things work - for instance, I'm wondering how the
random number you pull from the RNG when you hit "deal" is used to
determine your first 5 cards and then your draw cards, since there's
the added step of creating a played out bingo card to go through first.

Thanks in advance for any help,
Doug

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#3

Thanks Bill - are you saying that the cards you will get when you
discard and draw are already determined when you first deal the hand?

Also re: Oklhoma, the VP machines at Windstar, just north of the Texas
state line, are bingo based; hence my question as I play there on and off.

Doug

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@c...> wrote:

There are no Class II machines that include a draw, according to my
research. They are all stud-like machines, the Bingo game determines
the outcome.

Oklahoma is a Class II state but the Compacts allow "real" VP
machines which work exactly like Nevada machines. Only the slots are
Bingo-based.

#4

If a person were interested in more info IGT might be a good place to
go. An e-mail to them might get a wealth of info.

Cheers.
.

There are no Class II machines that include a draw, according to my
research. They are all stud-like machines, the Bingo game

determines

the outcome.

Oklahoma is a Class II state but the Compacts allow "real" VP
machines which work exactly like Nevada machines. Only the slots

are

Bingo-based.

Washington is a Class III state but the Compacts require the VP to

be

based on a lottery scratch-off ticket so they do not deal based on
each card having an equal chance of appearing but rather the final
result is set when you first deal. The draw is strictly for
entertainment; regardless of what you do the final result will be
what the scratch-off ticket determines.

There may be other states that have exceptions to the general rule
but I am not aware of any. If you want information about a

particular

state you can contact the Indian Gaming Association.

Bill

>Apologies if this question has already been answered on the group:
>
>Can anyone tell me if there are differences in playing strategy
>between the standard (Class III) VP machines and the Class II

machines

>used at indian casinos?
>
>I realize you are actually playing bingo on these machines, and

that

>you are playing against a single central RNG, with all the machines
>linked together.
>
>What I'd like to know is if this system creates any differences how
>you would play a game. For instance, if I'm playing 9/6 JOB at an
>indian casino, can I use the same strategy as I would playing 9/6

JOB

>on a Class III machine in Vegas or at any Class III casino?
>
>As a related question, can anyone tell me where I can find an
>explanation of how these bingo-based machines work? I've hunted the
>net some but haven't yet found one. I'm just a techie who likes to
>understand how things work - for instance, I'm wondering how the
>random number you pull from the RNG when you hit "deal" is used to
>determine your first 5 cards and then your draw cards, since

there's

>the added step of creating a played out bingo card to go through

first.

···

.--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@c...> wrote:

At 09:00 AM 12/5/2005, you wrote:
>
>Thanks in advance for any help,
>Doug
>
>
>
>
>
>
>vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#5

Not really, in Washington State (and NY Racinos) the final hand is
determined. But if you really screw up the cards will change. Let's
say you are dealt 4 6's and you throw one away. On IGT machines a
Genie will appear and replace all the cards so you'll end up with,
say, 4 8's. I understand another manufacturer will have a match
number or something that will generate the same win for you.

If Windstar has bingo-based vp then they refused to sign a compact
with the Governor. However, as I said to the best of my knowledge
there are NO bingo-based draw vp games on the market. If you look at
the machine, see a bingo card and get a draw please let me know who
the manufacturer is.

On the other hand, the staff at Windstar may not know all the details
and think that the VP is bingo-based even though it is not. If you
ask the Slot Director you will get a correct answer.

OK and WA are the two biggest exceptions to the general rule of how
Class II and III machines work.

B

···

At 01:54 PM 12/5/2005, you wrote:

Thanks Bill - are you saying that the cards you will get when you
discard and draw are already determined when you first deal the hand?

Also re: Oklhoma, the VP machines at Windstar, just north of the Texas
state line, are bingo based; hence my question as I play there on and off.

Doug

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@c...> wrote:
>
> There are no Class II machines that include a draw, according to my
> research. They are all stud-like machines, the Bingo game determines
> the outcome.
>
> Oklahoma is a Class II state but the Compacts allow "real" VP
> machines which work exactly like Nevada machines. Only the slots are
> Bingo-based.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#6

Or not. This says the courts are still determining what NIGC's role in
regulating Class III will be:
http://www.nigc.gov/nigc/documents/releases/PR-8-05-3.jsp
Chairman Hogen stated in a letter to tribes "it is important to focus
on what the court did and did not do in this case. What it did do was
hold that the NIGC couldn't penalize the Colorado River Indian Tribes
for resisting the NIGC's attempt to conduct an audit of its Class III
gaming. What it did not do was to enjoin the NIGC from applying its
MICS on Class III gaming elsewhere, or from conducting audits to
monitor tribal compliance with the MICS."
more:
http://www.google.com/search?q=NIGC+Class+III
where I found this tidbit:
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/alm/Press/indian_gaming_update.htm
IGRA divides Indian gaming into three categories. Class I gaming
consists of social games on Indian lands solely for prizes of minimal
value or traditional forms of Indian gaming engaged in as a part of or
in connection with tribal ceremonies or celebrations. 25 U.S.C. §
2703(6). Class II gaming consists of the game commonly known as bingo
and certain non-banking card games not explicitly prohibited by State
law. 25 U.S.C. § 2703(7)(A). The NIGC regulates Class II gaming on
Indian lands. Class III gaming refers to everything else; in essence,
all forms of gaming that are not Class I or II gaming. Class III
gaming cannot be conducted without a tribal-state compact. There is no
tribal-state compact in Alabama and, therefore, no Class III gaming is
authorized on Indian lands within the State.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "whitejeeps" <whitejeeps@y...> wrote:

If a person were interested in more info IGT might be a good place to
go. An e-mail to them might get a wealth of info.

Cheers.
.
.--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@c...> wrote:
>
> There are no Class II machines that include a draw, according to my
> research. They are all stud-like machines, the Bingo game
determines
> the outcome.
>
> Oklahoma is a Class II state but the Compacts allow "real" VP
> machines which work exactly like Nevada machines. Only the slots
are
> Bingo-based.
>
> Washington is a Class III state but the Compacts require the VP to
be
> based on a lottery scratch-off ticket so they do not deal based on
> each card having an equal chance of appearing but rather the final
> result is set when you first deal. The draw is strictly for
> entertainment; regardless of what you do the final result will be
> what the scratch-off ticket determines.
>
> There may be other states that have exceptions to the general rule
> but I am not aware of any. If you want information about a
particular
> state you can contact the Indian Gaming Association.
>
> Bill
>
> At 09:00 AM 12/5/2005, you wrote:
> >Apologies if this question has already been answered on the group:
> >
> >Can anyone tell me if there are differences in playing strategy
> >between the standard (Class III) VP machines and the Class II
machines
> >used at indian casinos?
> >
> >I realize you are actually playing bingo on these machines, and
that
> >you are playing against a single central RNG, with all the machines
> >linked together.
> >
> >What I'd like to know is if this system creates any differences how
> >you would play a game. For instance, if I'm playing 9/6 JOB at an
> >indian casino, can I use the same strategy as I would playing 9/6
JOB
> >on a Class III machine in Vegas or at any Class III casino?
> >
> >As a related question, can anyone tell me where I can find an
> >explanation of how these bingo-based machines work? I've hunted the
> >net some but haven't yet found one. I'm just a techie who likes to
> >understand how things work - for instance, I'm wondering how the
> >random number you pull from the RNG when you hit "deal" is used to
> >determine your first 5 cards and then your draw cards, since
there's
> >the added step of creating a played out bingo card to go through
first.
> >
> >Thanks in advance for any help,
> >Doug
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

#7

nightoftheiguana2000 wrote:

Class II gaming consists of the game commonly known as bingo ...
Class III gaming refers to everything else; in essence,
all forms of gaming that are not Class I or II gaming.

I'm using this excerpt to repeat a point that's important to
understand: Some posts here suggest that Class III gaming and "Vegas"
gaming are one and the same.

VP machines that we traditionally think of as "fair" are Class III
equipment. However, any machine that isn't a bingo-based mechanism
(such as the VLT's used for VP in Washington State and the IGT "genie"
machines) are Class III equipment as well.

There's no comfort to be taken if you're told that Class III equipment
is used in a tribal casino. Only if you specifically know that the
equipment runs on a standard RNG platform can you be sure that you're
getting a "fair" game.

I don't know of any reliable means by which to make that determination
short of a strong state regulating body. You can take some comfort if
you're playing a machine from a manufacturer that is standard in LV or
AC. However, even there the lines are being blurred.

IGT has aggressively entered the Class II market. Obviously, when
artificial win systems such as their "genie" are employed in a game,
you quickly get a clue that the machine isn't NV compliant.

However, because of the lack of any firm definition of Class III
equipment, hypothetically there's nothing to prevent a VP machine from
having the "look and feel" of a NV compliant game but actually have
outcomes that are skewed against the player.

- Harry

#8

NIGC Commission issues Fifth Preliminary Working Draft of Proposed
Class II Game Classification Standards:
http://www.nigc.gov/nigc/documents/announcements/class2standfourthdraft.jsp
Senate panel supports NIGC on Class II rules Friday, April 29, 2005:
http://www.indianz.com/News/2005/007901.asp
More significantly, the rules are the subject of dissent within the
administration. While the NIGC is attempting to respond to court
decisions favoring tribes and their use of technologically-enhanced
Class II machines, the Department of Justice says these machines are
illegal in the absence of a tribal-state compact required for Class
III games like slot machines. "The manufacturers of gaming equipment
have attempted to use creative engineering and graphic design to blur
the lines between these classes," testified Tom Heffelfinger, the U.S.
Attorney for Minnesota and the chair of DOJ's Native American Issues
subcommittee. "Certainty is what is needed," he said. ... Norman
DesRosiers, the longtime gaming commissioner for the Viejas Band of
Kumeyaay Indians in California, also weighed in on the controversy. He
criticized the Heffelfinger's statement that technology has "blurred"
the distinction between Class II games like bingo and Class III games.
"Technology has enhanced it," DesRosiers testified. "The package ...
that you visually see on the floor, granted, resembles a slot machine.
That's where it ends. It's not at all blurry to those of us who know
how slot machines work."

#9

Well, you can experimentally observe that a machine is skewed, when an
event doesn't occur as often as it's supposed to.

You only get a probability, not a certainty, and you can't prove that
a machine is fair, only that it is skewed.

The most convenient event to measure first in VP is the probability of
being drawn a pair (or any combination that has 2 cards of the same
rank). In a non-joker game, the probability is almost exactly 50%
(2053/4165 to be exact, assuming I didn't screw up my numbers).

Playing enough hands and keeping a count, you should quickly be able
to get a feel for whether you get a pair close to half the time or
not. If you don't, you'll have a good hint that the game is skewed.

Now, admittedly, that might not be the best event to look at (it only
loosely affects the final outcome of the game), but it's a good easy
start. Checking how often a held low pair gives you 2P or 3oak is
probably another good one to look at.

JBQ

···

On 12/5/05, Harry Porter <harry.porter@verizon.net> wrote:

I don't know of any reliable means by which to make that determination

#10

Well, you can experimentally observe that a machine is skewed, when an
event doesn't occur as often as it's supposed to.

That would most likely entail millions of hands.

You only get a probability, not a certainty, and you can't prove that
a machine is fair, only that it is skewed.

The most convenient event to measure first in VP is the probability of
being drawn a pair (or any combination that has 2 cards of the same
rank). In a non-joker game, the probability is almost exactly 50%
(2053/4165 to be exact, assuming I didn't screw up my numbers).

Playing enough hands and keeping a count, you should quickly be able
to get a feel for whether you get a pair close to half the time or
not. If you don't, you'll have a good hint that the game is skewed.

Now, admittedly, that might not be the best event to look at (it only
loosely affects the final outcome of the game), but it's a good easy
start. Checking how often a held low pair gives you 2P or 3oak is
probably another good one to look at.

JBQ

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com]On Behalf Of
Jean-Baptiste Queru
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 12:04 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Class II VP machines

On 12/5/05, Harry Porter <harry.porter@verizon.net> wrote:

I don't know of any reliable means by which to make that determination

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#11

Jean-Baptiste Queru wrote:

Playing enough hands and keeping a count, you should quickly be able
to get a feel for whether you get a pair close to half the time or
not. If you don't, you'll have a good hint that the game is skewed.

Now, admittedly, that might not be the best event to look at (it
only loosely affects the final outcome of the game), but it's a good
easy start.

From a practical perspective, if I had sufficient motivation to check
hand occurance frequency for a machine, the fairness of the machine
would be seriously enough in doubt that I'd be loathe risking money in
an effort to assess the machine "trueness". I'd feel like a real
chump if, after a few thousand hands played, I discovered I likely was
being cheated ;

But, from an academic perspective, if I were looking to gaffe a
machine I'd program a secondary decision process that would redraw
certain winning hands. For example, you could shave 2-3% off the
return of most non-wild card games by redrawing on 10% of the hands
that otherwise would produce a S, F, or FH. To mix things up a bit, I
might pare some hand types out more than others on some days and vice
versa on other days.

Given a moderately long cycle on these hands, I'd expect it would take
a decent amount of time to statistically determine with good
confidence that the RNG had been undermined.

Bottom line, my point is that you should simply turn away from any
machine in which you don't have confidence. It's my guess, gaffed or
fair, that if you have doubts about the machine's fairness the
naturally frequent downswings of play are going to be particularly
bitter and unsatisfying.

- Harry

#12

Hmm...the action you describe for WA and NY does not sound at all like
what happens with the games at Winstar.

Let me back up a minute: First, I'm sorry to say I can't remember the
manufacturer of the machines there. There are both table top and
vertical VP models there, all (I think) made by the same manufacturer
and all having only ONE game available, 9/6 JOB. They are all
multi-denomination machines, .25, .50 and $1.

The display appears to be a standard VP display, except that in the
upper left corner there is a bingo card and on the upper right there
is a display of showing bingo game number and a representation of the
balls drawn at the end of each game. You can change the bingo card by
tapping it, alternating between one of several availalble cards in
play, which follows the procedure for class II games.

In all other respects, these machines act like standard VP machines.
You give it your money (either cash in or player-card in), select
denomination, select a wager (1 to 5 coins), and press "Deal." You
select your hold cards, press "Deal" again and receive new cards to
replace your discards.

After you have received your new cards, the VP pay table highlights
any paying hands as normal, and the bingo display shows a completed
card of some form, with the matching numbers highlighted. Winning
hands correspond to some form of a winning card, and if you look at
the "Pays" display you are shown the various forms of winning cards
(diagonals, horizontals, verticals, four corners, etc).

I have not deliberately made a wrong play, such as throwing away one
of four-of-a-kind, although I know I've made a few mistakes, such as
one time when I did not get the hold latched on one card out of two
pair, and hit the deal button too quickly. When I did that, I
certainly did not get my two pair back! Instead, I got a non-paying
hand (the two pair was low cards).

That would imply to me that there is a draw on these machines. Also,
I'd say this is supported by the fact that you don't see your winning
bingo card until after the hold/discard action is complete.

Perhaps I've answered my own question, in a way, since if there *is* a
draw, then using VP strategy should be beneficial to your results. My
original question, though, still remains: Is the strategy for these
machines the same as for Class III machines?

Finally (with apologies for a long winded reply!), I should mention
that there are other forms of VP at this casino, such as "Royals," but
I have not played them because they do not offer good pay tables.

Doug

Not really, in Washington State (and NY Racinos) the final hand is
determined. But if you really screw up the cards will change. Let's
say you are dealt 4 6's and you throw one away. On IGT machines a
Genie will appear and replace all the cards so you'll end up with,
say, 4 8's. I understand another manufacturer will have a match
number or something that will generate the same win for you.

If Windstar has bingo-based vp then they refused to sign a compact
with the Governor. However, as I said to the best of my knowledge
there are NO bingo-based draw vp games on the market. If you look at
the machine, see a bingo card and get a draw please let me know who
the manufacturer is.

On the other hand, the staff at Windstar may not know all the details
and think that the VP is bingo-based even though it is not. If you
ask the Slot Director you will get a correct answer.

OK and WA are the two biggest exceptions to the general rule of how
Class II and III machines work.

B

>Thanks Bill - are you saying that the cards you will get when you
>discard and draw are already determined when you first deal the hand?
>
>Also re: Oklhoma, the VP machines at Windstar, just north of the Texas
>state line, are bingo based; hence my question as I play there on

and off.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@c...> wrote:

At 01:54 PM 12/5/2005, you wrote:
>
>Doug
>
>--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@c...> wrote:
> >
> > There are no Class II machines that include a draw, according to my
> > research. They are all stud-like machines, the Bingo game determines
> > the outcome.
> >
> > Oklahoma is a Class II state but the Compacts allow "real" VP
> > machines which work exactly like Nevada machines. Only the slots are
> > Bingo-based.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#13

Well, I've been through there website, but haven't tried emailing them.

Thanks for the suggestion!
Doug

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "whitejeeps" <whitejeeps@y...> wrote:

If a person were interested in more info IGT might be a good place to
go. An e-mail to them might get a wealth of info.

Cheers.
.
.--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@c...> wrote:
>
> There are no Class II machines that include a draw, according to my
> research. They are all stud-like machines, the Bingo game
determines
> the outcome.
>
> Oklahoma is a Class II state but the Compacts allow "real" VP
> machines which work exactly like Nevada machines. Only the slots
are
> Bingo-based.
>
> Washington is a Class III state but the Compacts require the VP to
be
> based on a lottery scratch-off ticket so they do not deal based on
> each card having an equal chance of appearing but rather the final
> result is set when you first deal. The draw is strictly for
> entertainment; regardless of what you do the final result will be
> what the scratch-off ticket determines.
>
> There may be other states that have exceptions to the general rule
> but I am not aware of any. If you want information about a
particular
> state you can contact the Indian Gaming Association.
>
> Bill
>
> At 09:00 AM 12/5/2005, you wrote:
> >Apologies if this question has already been answered on the group:
> >
> >Can anyone tell me if there are differences in playing strategy
> >between the standard (Class III) VP machines and the Class II
machines
> >used at indian casinos?
> >
> >I realize you are actually playing bingo on these machines, and
that
> >you are playing against a single central RNG, with all the machines
> >linked together.
> >
> >What I'd like to know is if this system creates any differences how
> >you would play a game. For instance, if I'm playing 9/6 JOB at an
> >indian casino, can I use the same strategy as I would playing 9/6
JOB
> >on a Class III machine in Vegas or at any Class III casino?
> >
> >As a related question, can anyone tell me where I can find an
> >explanation of how these bingo-based machines work? I've hunted the
> >net some but haven't yet found one. I'm just a techie who likes to
> >understand how things work - for instance, I'm wondering how the
> >random number you pull from the RNG when you hit "deal" is used to
> >determine your first 5 cards and then your draw cards, since
there's
> >the added step of creating a played out bingo card to go through
first.
> >
> >Thanks in advance for any help,
> >Doug
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

#14

The VP I am familiar with in Washington State is named Match Card Video
Poker. I believe it is an IGT game. It was relatively easy to confirm
is was NOT a standard LV style VP game once I decided to do a few
experiments. Play a few games and discard winning hands. You'll
discover you still win the hand, either by replacement cards or the
Match Card bonus. Incidentally, on the machines I played there was no
HELP function explaining how the game is set up. I'm sure most people
who play these machines have no inkling it is essentially a slot
machine.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@c...> wrote:

Washington is a Class III state but the Compacts require the VP to be
based on a lottery scratch-off ticket so they do not deal based on
each card having an equal chance of appearing but rather the final
result is set when you first deal. The draw is strictly for
entertainment; regardless of what you do the final result will be
what the scratch-off ticket determines.

#15

I have never seen these machines but I have been informed that they
are NOT IGT machines. IGT lottery machines use the Game King platform
and have the Genie feature. I said that I understood other
manufacturers use another system, the Match Card being what I had in
mind. It will have the same effect as the Genie in IGT.

And you are right, the machines are more like slots than VP machines.

B

···

At 11:10 AM 12/6/2005, you wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@c...> wrote:
> Washington is a Class III state but the Compacts require the VP to be
> based on a lottery scratch-off ticket so they do not deal based on
> each card having an equal chance of appearing but rather the final
> result is set when you first deal. The draw is strictly for
> entertainment; regardless of what you do the final result will be
> what the scratch-off ticket determines.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The VP I am familiar with in Washington State is named Match Card Video
Poker. I believe it is an IGT game. It was relatively easy to confirm
is was NOT a standard LV style VP game once I decided to do a few
experiments. Play a few games and discard winning hands. You'll
discover you still win the hand, either by replacement cards or the
Match Card bonus. Incidentally, on the machines I played there was no
HELP function explaining how the game is set up. I'm sure most people
who play these machines have no inkling it is essentially a slot
machine.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#16

And if you attempted to explain the difference to them, you'd have more
success talking to a wall :slight_smile:

EE

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...> wrote:

.......I'm sure most people
who play these machines have no inkling it is essentially a slot
machine.

#17

Bill Coleman previously wrote:

Washington is a Class III state but the Compacts require the VP to
be based on a lottery scratch-off ticket so they do not deal based
on each card having an equal chance of appearing but rather the
final result is set when you first deal. The draw is strictly for
entertainment; regardless of what you do the final result will be
what the scratch-off ticket determines.

Bill Coleman also wrote:

I have never seen these machines but I have been informed that they
are NOT IGT machines ... I said that I understood other
manufacturers use another system, the Match Card being what I had in
mind. It will have the same effect as the Genie in IGT.

The Match Card Bonus machines in Washington State are video lottery
terminals (VLT) manufactured by Sierra Design Group (SDG). VLT's
aren't based on a bingo system and therefore are Class III equipment.
They operate as Bill describes.

As noted by brumar_lv, when a win is predetermined for a play, the
deal/draw will contain the cards necessary to form a hand paying the
amount of that win. If the player defeats that win through a hold
other than intended, a bonus mechanism will kick in that awards the
win anyway.

I'm sure he's on target in suggesting that damned few players
understand that the cards are not randomly dealt on these games.

- Harry

#18

Indeed they are Sierra Design Group machines. SDG is a subsidiary of
Alliance Gaming which merged a few years ago with Bally Gaming. I
probably recalled the initials SDG as IGT.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@c...> wrote:

I have never seen these machines but I have been informed that they
are NOT IGT machines. IGT lottery machines use the Game King platform
and have the Genie feature. I said that I understood other
manufacturers use another system, the Match Card being what I had in
mind. It will have the same effect as the Genie in IGT.