Class II the reel deal

[whitejeeps]

Hi all

There's been so much discussion on Class II.

For those who want to know, I am suggesting one can search; "Reel
deal casino player frank legato" lots of info and explains vp class II.

I think there is a little info on vpFREE too. Somewhere in extra
info, not in posts. There's a lot of posts too, however many like to
see something in "official" print.

Also search, "indian country today class II wanamaker" . "IGT class
II" has some info too, but not really what we might want.

Of course, variations of all of the above will give all here
interested all info needed to understand class II compared to class
III. I think casino player has enough info for most.

I never thought to look in vpFREE links. There might be something
there. If not, I wonder if info links might be something to add
somewhere. Geeze if we have all the info; what will we fight about in
our postings?

Cheers....Jeep

[Bill_Coleman1]

Just a point, part of the reason I stopped selling articles to Casino Player is because so much of what they print is incorrect. Don't believe everything you read.

···

At 06:21 PM 8/20/2007, you wrote:

Hi all

There's been so much discussion on Class II.

For those who want to know, I am suggesting one can search; "Reel
deal casino player frank legato" lots of info and explains vp class II.

I think there is a little info on vpFREE too. Somewhere in extra
info, not in posts. There's a lot of posts too, however many like to
see something in "official" print.

Also search, "indian country today class II wanamaker" . "IGT class
II" has some info too, but not really what we might want.

Of course, variations of all of the above will give all here
interested all info needed to understand class II compared to class
III. I think casino player has enough info for most.

I never thought to look in vpFREE links. There might be something
there. If not, I wonder if info links might be something to add
somewhere. Geeze if we have all the info; what will we fight about in
our postings?

Cheers....Jeep

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

[vpFae1]

See FAQ #3c:

http://members.cox.net/vpfree/FAQ.htm#3c

vpFae

···

On 21 Aug 2007 at 1:21, whitejeeps wrote:

There's been so much discussion on Class II ...

... I never thought to look in vpFREE links. There might be
something there ...

[brucem]

A reference to what vpFREE said about VLT's.

Colemans VLT discussion mentions the VLT may have a RNG, but
does not deal randomly from a 52-card deck. So, if the cards aren't
selected randomly, how are they selected? I can think of one way to
select the cards so they appear random but result in a lesser return
than the paytable would indicate.

The method is based on the frequency of each winning hand in one RF
cycle, as computed by our VP software based on the paytable for the
game. Each of these frequencies is artificially "tweaked" to a
slightly smaller value. These adjusted values would then be
converted to a "range" of numbers. For example, if a winning pair
happens 25% of the time in one RF cycle, this frequency might be
adjusted down to 24%, and a "range" for this hand defined a 000001-
240000. When the RNG generates a number in this range, the hand
dealt would be a winning pair. So, to the player it might appear to
happen as often as it usually does but, in fact, it doesn't.

Also, to disguise what is happening, the program knows, based on the
number generated by the RNG, that a winning pair is needed, so it may
deal itself cards until it gets a pair, and this is the hand
presented to the player. If the RNG generated a number calling for a
quad, it would deal itself cards until it had a quad, and this would
be the hand presented to the player. Since a winning or losing hand
is determined in advance, by the number generated by the RNG, nothing
the player does in terms of holding/discarding cards will affect the
outcome.

I don't know if this method is actually used, but it seems to me it
could be used without the player sensing any change in the way the
game plays.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFae" <vpFae@...> wrote:

[Harry_Porter]

brumar_lv wrote:

Colemans VLT discussion mentions the VLT may have a RNG, but
does not deal randomly from a 52-card deck. So, if the cards aren't
selected randomly, how are they selected? I can think of one way to
select the cards so they appear random but result in a lesser return
than the paytable would indicate.

You go on to suggest a mechanism that would yield a lower return game
while giving a broad appearance of a stronger return on my managing
certain hand frequencies.

I'm confident that the VLT's I observed (ok, played, for a limited
time in WA State operated much more simply. Bear in mind that in
WA State and (reported) in NY State, the machines operate as simple
lottery "scratch cards" (or pull tabs, if you wish).

You hit play and a central point distributes a game result, win or
lose. That distributor could care less whether you're playing a
"video poker" machine, a While of Fortune machine, or other slot
machine. The machine you're playing takes that game result and
constructs a play consistent with it.

In the case of the WA State VLT video poker machine, I presume that an
RNG in the machine cycles through generated hands until one that is
consistent with the determined game result is produced (ensuring that
no greater hand is possible), and deals the first 5 cards of it to
you. If for some reason your hold choice results in a win less than
the intended one, you receive a delightful "Match Card" bonus,
restoring the balance of the win.

It could be possible that on the losing plays that a certain number of
low pairs are generated to keep things interesting. However, my guess
is that the programmers wouldn't bother to employ any particular
intelligence in setting a ratio (aside from not too high, not too
low). Gamblers are a pretty dim witted lot on the whole (company in
this group the far exception ;).

[Bill_Coleman1]

Sorry, you must have misread it. Most VLT's, whether they have an independent RNG or a central-server DO deal randomly from a 52-card deck. However, in NY Racinos and Wash State Indian casinos the VLT's are actually tied to a lottery system and receive the results of a scratch-card from the central server. Then, whether they look like slot machines or VP machines they entertain the customer by spinning reels or displaying hands (and draws) that will ALWAYS end up with the results of the scratch-off ticket. What you hold on a VP machine doesn't matter, the machine will make sure you have the right ending payoff (sometimes using a genie or Match number to arrange this).

Your suggestions are how to fool the customer. The actual system is random, fair and above-board. In fact, since each pack of lottery scratchoffs contains exactly the right distribution of winners over the short-run the actual return matches the theoretical return (like slots, in the high 80's or low 90's). Nevada-type games might run millions of plays before approximating the theoretical return, these 2 VLT's actually hit the theo in a few thousand games.

···

At 12:19 AM 8/22/2007, you wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFae" <vpFae@...> wrote:
A reference to what vpFREE said about VLT's.

Colemans VLT discussion mentions the VLT may have a RNG, but
does not deal randomly from a 52-card deck. So, if the cards aren't
selected randomly, how are they selected? I can think of one way to
select the cards so they appear random but result in a lesser return
than the paytable would indicate.

The method is based on the frequency of each winning hand in one RF
cycle, as computed by our VP software based on the paytable for the
game. Each of these frequencies is artificially "tweaked" to a
slightly smaller value. These adjusted values would then be
converted to a "range" of numbers. For example, if a winning pair
happens 25% of the time in one RF cycle, this frequency might be
adjusted down to 24%, and a "range" for this hand defined a 000001-
240000. When the RNG generates a number in this range, the hand
dealt would be a winning pair. So, to the player it might appear to
happen as often as it usually does but, in fact, it doesn't.

Also, to disguise what is happening, the program knows, based on the
number generated by the RNG, that a winning pair is needed, so it may
deal itself cards until it gets a pair, and this is the hand
presented to the player. If the RNG generated a number calling for a
quad, it would deal itself cards until it had a quad, and this would
be the hand presented to the player. Since a winning or losing hand
is determined in advance, by the number generated by the RNG, nothing
the player does in terms of holding/discarding cards will affect the
outcome.

I don't know if this method is actually used, but it seems to me it
could be used without the player sensing any change in the way the
game plays.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

[brucem]

Sorry, you must have misread it. Most VLT's, whether they have an
independent RNG or a central-server DO deal randomly from a 52-card
deck. However, in NY Racinos and Wash State Indian casinos the

VLT's

are actually tied to a lottery system and receive the results of a
scratch-card from the central server. Then, whether they look like
slot machines or VP machines they entertain the customer by

spinning

reels or displaying hands (and draws) that will ALWAYS end up with
the results of the scratch-off ticket. What you hold on a VP

machine

doesn't matter, the machine will make sure you have the right

ending

payoff (sometimes using a genie or Match number to arrange this).

Your suggestions are how to fool the customer. The actual system is
random, fair and above-board. In fact, since each pack of lottery
scratchoffs contains exactly the right distribution of winners over
the short-run the actual return matches the theoretical return

(like

slots, in the high 80's or low 90's). Nevada-type games might run
millions of plays before approximating the theoretical return,

these

2 VLT's actually hit the theo in a few thousand games.

I was referring to the Washington VP games, in the Indian Casinos
near me. And I agree the system is random, fair, and above-board ...
but unrelated to the pay schedule. So in that sense it isn't "fair"
since many Washington players think they are playing LV VP.

I don't think we are as far apart as it seems. My guess is the
scratch card from the central server is really a random number
generated by a RNG, which the machine uses to generate the hand. I
was simply suggesting what the machine does with the scratch card
number so the game plays like a LV game, but a lower EV not tied to
the paytable.

For example, there needs to be a way to handle different sets of
winning hands. 9/6JB, for example, has fewer winning hands than
DDB. So it seems unlikely the central server will send 9/6JB a
scratch card for 4Acesw/Kicker. It seems more likely it sends a
number, and the machine figures out what to do with it.

I agree the cards are probably "selected" randomly, but not all
selected cards are used. Some are discarded until the desired result
is achieved. If, for example, the scratch card (or RNG) calls for a
RF, the "random" deal might go through 40-50 cards before compiling a
RF. This isn't what we normally mean by a random deal.

I'm also surprised the theo might be reached in a few thousand
games. This suggests the way to play is to watch players a few
hours, and if no one gets a RF, sit down and play because
it's "due". I really doubt that's true. The method I described
could deal consecutive RF's, or no RF's for 200,000 hands ... just
like in LV.

This thing that got me thinking about the Washingtom central server
system is the vast array of games with differing complexity and
variance. I can't see how a simple scratch card (pull tab) system
can accommodate the enormous complexity. It seems more likely the
central server is passing random numbers to the machines, and each
game has specific logic for using the number.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

[Bill_Coleman1]

Now we're getting close. My understanding is that the RNG selects a scratch-off ticket from the remaining stack. It finds the value. (Now I'm not entirely sure, but I believe it works like this):
There are a number of hands that match the value. One is selected randomly and the game plays it out. If it just randomly picks cards then it can't provide the draw function. So if a $1000 win is picked on a 25c machine it may select a royal and deal it or it may select 3 to a royal and let you draw the last 2. If it worked the way you think it couldn't possibly know that 3 royal and 2 small cards is the right hand to deal to end up with a royal. Someone will still have to program the patterns so why have a more complicated set.

You are right, I was over-simplifying. Physical scratch cards are printed with a few hundred thousand to a couple of million tickets. The virtual decks are probably similar and you'll get to the theo in approximately the same number of hands as on a vegas-style machine. The point I was trying to make is that the theoretical win of the machines will be exactly as expected. And, the scratch-off tickets are distributed to all machines of that denom so you could possibly know that a jackpot was due but which of the 2000 machines in the casino will send its request at just the right time.

You're clearly right that each machine has its own game logic for how to display the results but the results are determined by the central server (again we're only talking about each individual Indian casino in Washington or all the NY Racinos linked together). NY Indian casinos do not operate this way.

···

At 07:03 PM 8/22/2007, you wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry, you must have misread it. Most VLT's, whether they have an
> independent RNG or a central-server DO deal randomly from a 52-card
> deck. However, in NY Racinos and Wash State Indian casinos the
VLT's
> are actually tied to a lottery system and receive the results of a
> scratch-card from the central server. Then, whether they look like
> slot machines or VP machines they entertain the customer by
spinning
> reels or displaying hands (and draws) that will ALWAYS end up with
> the results of the scratch-off ticket. What you hold on a VP
machine
> doesn't matter, the machine will make sure you have the right
ending
> payoff (sometimes using a genie or Match number to arrange this).
>
> Your suggestions are how to fool the customer. The actual system is
> random, fair and above-board. In fact, since each pack of lottery
> scratchoffs contains exactly the right distribution of winners over
> the short-run the actual return matches the theoretical return
(like
> slots, in the high 80's or low 90's). Nevada-type games might run
> millions of plays before approximating the theoretical return,
these
> 2 VLT's actually hit the theo in a few thousand games.
>>>>>>
I was referring to the Washington VP games, in the Indian Casinos
near me. And I agree the system is random, fair, and above-board ...
but unrelated to the pay schedule. So in that sense it isn't "fair"
since many Washington players think they are playing LV VP.

I don't think we are as far apart as it seems. My guess is the
scratch card from the central server is really a random number
generated by a RNG, which the machine uses to generate the hand. I
was simply suggesting what the machine does with the scratch card
number so the game plays like a LV game, but a lower EV not tied to
the paytable.

For example, there needs to be a way to handle different sets of
winning hands. 9/6JB, for example, has fewer winning hands than
DDB. So it seems unlikely the central server will send 9/6JB a
scratch card for 4Acesw/Kicker. It seems more likely it sends a
number, and the machine figures out what to do with it.

I agree the cards are probably "selected" randomly, but not all
selected cards are used. Some are discarded until the desired result
is achieved. If, for example, the scratch card (or RNG) calls for a
RF, the "random" deal might go through 40-50 cards before compiling a
RF. This isn't what we normally mean by a random deal.

I'm also surprised the theo might be reached in a few thousand
games. This suggests the way to play is to watch players a few
hours, and if no one gets a RF, sit down and play because
it's "due". I really doubt that's true. The method I described
could deal consecutive RF's, or no RF's for 200,000 hands ... just
like in LV.

This thing that got me thinking about the Washingtom central server
system is the vast array of games with differing complexity and
variance. I can't see how a simple scratch card (pull tab) system
can accommodate the enormous complexity. It seems more likely the
central server is passing random numbers to the machines, and each
game has specific logic for using the number.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

[brucem]

Now we're getting close. My understanding is that the RNG selects a
scratch-off ticket from the remaining stack. It finds the value.

(Now

I'm not entirely sure, but I believe it works like this):
There are a number of hands that match the value. One is selected
randomly and the game plays it out. If it just randomly picks cards
then it can't provide the draw function. So if a $1000 win is

picked

on a 25c machine it may select a royal and deal it or it may select

3

to a royal and let you draw the last 2. If it worked the way you
think it couldn't possibly know that 3 royal and 2 small cards is

the

right hand to deal to end up with a royal. Someone will still have

to

program the patterns so why have a more complicated set.

I checked the Washington Gambling Commission explanation of how the
Tribal "Lottery System" works. And its just as you've stated many
times in prior posts. It interesting they say the typical setup is a
bank of similar machines. I interpret this to mean that , typically,
a bank consists of a bank of the same games all working from the same
finite set of lottery tickets. So, 6-8 9/6JB machines sitting side
by side might be a bank. Heres what they said:

"The virtual scratch tickets are dispensed from a finite "game set"
that delivers tickets randomly to two or more terminals. The most
common scenario is that players on the same bank (group) of machines
are playing from the same game set."

I wonder if 9/6JB and DDBP could be combined into one bank? If so,
it must be more complex than they've said because the winning hands
aren't the same. They don't mention how a redeal works either. It
doesn't make sense to deal a quad every time the scratch ticket calls
for a quad. In LV you might hold 1 ace to get a quad, or even a
redeal. Don't know if this ever happens in Washington.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

[brucem]

You're clearly right that each machine has its own game logic for

how

to display the results but the results are determined by the

central

server.

The problem that concerned me about the VLT's in Washington was how
the central server accommodates the wide variety of games. An
example is the difference between 9/6JB and DDBP. I believe this
problem is solved by having different "finite game sets" for each
different type of game. There is probably a game set for 9/JB and
a different one for DDBP. Each game set consists of a huge number of
entries that each represent a different outcome, from no win to a
RF. Probably 55% (or so) of the entries for each game set are for no
win. The server selects these entries randomly until they are all
used up, at which point a brand new game set is initialized. I
suspect the game makers setup each game set so it roughly corresponds
to the hand frequencies computed using standard VP software, except
the win frequencies are slightly reduced and the no-win frequency
slightly increased. But the frequencies are still pretty close to
the hand frequencies computed based on the pay table, so the player
notices very little difference in how it plays. All of this happens
inside the server. The individual machines simply display the cards
and ensure the outcome agrees with the entry selected by the server.

There are a few questions unsolved, for me anyway. Does the server
use every entry and then reinitilize a new game set, or does the
casino pick a slow time every week or so and reinitialize all the
game sets at once? If its the latter, then the casino may not
realize the exact EV that is expected for each game set.

There is another way this could be done by the server, where the game
sets consists of only one entry for each type of win or loss. There
would only be 10 entries for 9/6JB. Associated with each entry would
be a range of random numbers. When the server selects a random
number it would be matched to the corresponding range, and the
correct outcome determined. This would be an infinite game set that
never needs to be reinitialized. This would work OK, but the state
seems to insist on a system like pull tabs, so this approach is
probably not used.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

[mroejacks]

The problem that concerned me about the VLT's in Washington was how
the central server accommodates the wide variety of games. An
example is the difference between 9/6JB and DDBP. I believe this
problem is solved by having different "finite game sets" for each
different type of game. There is probably a game set for 9/JB and
a different one for DDBP. Each game set consists of a huge number

of

entries that each represent a different outcome, from no win to a
RF. Probably 55% (or so) of the entries for each game set are for

no

win. The server selects these entries randomly until they are all
used up, at which point a brand new game set is initialized. I
suspect the game makers setup each game set so it roughly

corresponds

to the hand frequencies computed using standard VP software, except
the win frequencies are slightly reduced and the no-win frequency
slightly increased. But the frequencies are still pretty close to
the hand frequencies computed based on the pay table, so the player
notices very little difference in how it plays. All of this

happens

inside the server. The individual machines simply display the

cards

and ensure the outcome agrees with the entry selected by the server.

There are a few questions unsolved, for me anyway. Does the server
use every entry and then reinitilize a new game set, or does the
casino pick a slow time every week or so and reinitialize all the
game sets at once? If its the latter, then the casino may not
realize the exact EV that is expected for each game set.

There is another way this could be done by the server, where the

game

sets consists of only one entry for each type of win or loss.

There

would only be 10 entries for 9/6JB. Associated with each entry

would

be a range of random numbers. When the server selects a random
number it would be matched to the corresponding range, and the
correct outcome determined. This would be an infinite game set

that

never needs to be reinitialized. This would work OK, but the state
seems to insist on a system like pull tabs, so this approach is
probably not used.

Don't know if this will help but I noticed the pairs were in the
exact same positions every time I got two pair. At the time I had
never heard of VLTs but after I noticed this we were out of there.
This was about 8 years ago.

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@...> wrote: