vpFREE2 Forums

Check out DailyTech - Man May be Sent to Prison for Exploiting Firmware Bug i

#1

The guy cheated the casinos. His original bets would have never been able to win the amounts he took. If he had an error in his favor at his bank because of a computer glitch and took the money, he'd be required by law to return it. This is not taking advantage of a casino game like card counting is. And what kind of attorney would defend such a creep?

Prison awaits.

···

----- Reply message -----
From: "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Check out DailyTech - Man May be Sent to Prison for Exploiting Firmware Bug i
Date: Tue, May 7, 2013 12:21 pm
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, krallison416@... wrote:

_Click here: DailyTech - Man May be Sent to Prison for Exploiting Firmware

Bug in Poker Machine_

(http://www.dailytech.com/Man+May+be+Sent+to+Prison+for+Exploiting+Firmware+Bug+in+Poker+Machine/article31467.htm)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

Have you ever lost a good hand because the button sticks for the first time? Can I get my money? Did the casino cheat me by not keeping the machines in good working order? This is the social compact that it should be in good order.

···

To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
From: rob.singer1111@yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 12:57:10 -0700
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Check out DailyTech - Man May be Sent to Prison for Exploiting Firmware Bug i

The guy cheated the casinos. His original bets would have never been able to win the amounts he took. If he had an error in his favor at his bank because of a computer glitch and took the money, he'd be required by law to return it. This is not taking advantage of a casino game like card counting is. And what kind of attorney would defend such a creep?

Prison awaits.

----- Reply message -----
From: "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Check out DailyTech - Man May be Sent to Prison for Exploiting Firmware Bug i
Date: Tue, May 7, 2013 12:21 pm
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, krallison416@... wrote:

_Click here: DailyTech - Man May be Sent to Prison for Exploiting Firmware

Bug in Poker Machine_

(http://www.dailytech.com/Man+May+be+Sent+to+Prison+for+Exploiting+Firmware+Bug+in+Poker+Machine/article31467.htm)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#3

The guy cheated the casinos. His original bets would have never been able to win the amounts he took.

You are making a large assumption with this statement Rob. I think it is interesting that neither the casinos or Gaming did not feel there was a malfunction that voided the pays- this guy got paid. I think if this was tampering with the machine in some way, then Gaming would have pursued enforcement- it does not appear they did.

If it were me, the first time was an accident and I may or may not report it. If I made the miracle win happen a second time and then tried to exploit the game in an unintended manner that is when it crosses the line to me. And those wins could drive paytables down further or have the game removed because it wasn't profitable, so that is when it crosses the line. Burning through a play, perhaps?

As a college freshman video games- in arcades- were popular- I learned a trick on game called Star Castle. I played for over 6 hours, just to see if the score went to 1,000,000 or rolled over to zero again. When it got to 1,000,000, it kept going. We (I couldn't play 6 hours straight by myself!) had over 400 ships left to play- we could have played it forever- or until they closed the arcade. I never played the game again- why would I need to- I had mastered it. Was I cheating the machine? There is a fine line between cheating and taking advantage of a flaw. I think in this case, once they continued to do it and developed a strategy to take advantage of it they crossed the line.

The question is- what would Mickey Crimm have done?

Just my .02- Thanks, Lee.

#4

Lee wrote: You are making a large assumption with this statement Rob. I think it
is interesting that neither the casinos or Gaming did not feel there was
a malfunction that voided the pays- this guy got paid. I think if this
was tampering with the machine in some way, then Gaming would have
pursued enforcement- it does not appear they did.

Your post is incorrect.
I was speaking to Craig Cavileer, GM of the Silverton, shortly after the player's second visit there. The casino was highly suspicious that the player's unusual good fortune on the first visit was happening again. Without going into great detail (there's still a trial to be had), the player was not able to leave with his riches. When he went to leave he was surrounded by some combination of police, Gaming agents, and casino security.

I think it was Rob Singer who asked "what kind of attorney would defend such a creep?" I personally am glad I live in a place where accused criminals can get a good defense. Whatever the actual facts turn out to be, you can be very sure that the newspaper accounts some of them wrong. When this case is adjudicated there might be several decisions that affect many of us down the road. I believe that it's to most of our interests to follow this case closely rather than to dismiss the defendant as a creep.
In my Million Dollar Video Poker autobiography I admitted to (after consulting with an attorney) playing some high stakes video poker machines that were receiving slot club benefits appropriate to slot machines rather than video poker machines. While that's different from what happened here, presumably the same law could be used against me. Other players have done similar things. I guess to Rob we must all be creeps who deserve to rot in prison.
Bob

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#5

Sorry about Shirley and you Bob, I only know you through your auto book and articles. Glad you are doing well now.

···

To: vpfree@yahoogroups.com
From: bobdancervp@hotmail.com
Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 07:41:55 -0700
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Check out DailyTech - Man May be Sent to Prison for Exploiting Firmware Bug i

Lee wrote: You are making a large assumption with this statement Rob. I think it
is interesting that neither the casinos or Gaming did not feel there was
a malfunction that voided the pays- this guy got paid. I think if this
was tampering with the machine in some way, then Gaming would have
pursued enforcement- it does not appear they did.

Your post is incorrect.
I was speaking to Craig Cavileer, GM of the Silverton, shortly after the player's second visit there. The casino was highly suspicious that the player's unusual good fortune on the first visit was happening again. Without going into great detail (there's still a trial to be had), the player was not able to leave with his riches. When he went to leave he was surrounded by some combination of police, Gaming agents, and casino security.

I think it was Rob Singer who asked "what kind of attorney would defend such a creep?" I personally am glad I live in a place where accused criminals can get a good defense. Whatever the actual facts turn out to be, you can be very sure that the newspaper accounts some of them wrong. When this case is adjudicated there might be several decisions that affect many of us down the road. I believe that it's to most of our interests to follow this case closely rather than to dismiss the defendant as a creep.
In my Million Dollar Video Poker autobiography I admitted to (after consulting with an attorney) playing some high stakes video poker machines that were receiving slot club benefits appropriate to slot machines rather than video poker machines. While that's different from what happened here, presumably the same law could be used against me. Other players have done similar things. I guess to Rob we must all be creeps who deserve to rot in prison.
Bob

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#6

If the casinos had spent as much as the banks on having politicians craft laws protecting their industry as the banks - yes this would be the same situation, but casinos are not protected like banks.
He did not manipulate the game he found a pattern and used that. Is this cheating - I don't think so, but it is debatable.
Would anyone call this hypothetical story cheating:After being dealt a pair of red kings on job, threw them by accident. The next hand was a dealt 4ok. It turned out that about 1/3rd of the time after throwing a pair of red kings and only red kings that the next hand dealt on that machine regardless of changing denomination and game was a dealt 4ok. If you found that this was a universal pattern - is it cheating and would you exploit it whether you thought it was cheating or not?

···

To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
From: rob.singer1111@yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 12:57:10 -0700
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Check out DailyTech - Man May be Sent to Prison for Exploiting Firmware Bug i

      The guy cheated the casinos. His original bets would have never been able to win the amounts he took. If he had an error in his favor at his bank because of a computer glitch and took the money, he'd be required by law to return it. This is not taking advantage of a casino game like card counting is. And what kind of attorney would defend such a creep?

Prison awaits.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#7

It's hard to say if I would have crossed the line or not. That's some REAL BIG temptation to make a quick score. Any time I run into something that's in the grey area there is always the little guy on my right shoulder telling me not to do it, and the little guy on my left shoulder telling me damn the torpedoes. I've been involved in some grey areas before, but never a play that was absolutely across the line. I've always prided myself on not having to cheat to win. And the penalty, at the very least, for Mr. Kane, is he will be barred from every casino in the country. That is something I would never want to face.

But I can tell you absolutely for sure that Mr. Kane is a dumb crook.

When the guy stumbled onto the glitch he called a friend and informed him. I definitely would not have done that. You cannot be charged with conspiracy if you are not in cahoots with someone. And you are running the risk that your so called friend will expose the play to others.

And this is where Mr. Kane is an absolutly, positively, sure as hell, dumber than a rock crook. He took W2'G's!!! What an idiot!!! If he never took a W2-G he would still be putting the play down, and would probably be putting it down forever. The large jackpot amounts, in quick succession, caused the scrutiny by security.

He should have been turning $80 jackpots into $800 jackpots, not $800 jackpots into $8000 jackpots. He wouldn't have invested any more time doing it that way. It's a hell of a lot quicker to put an $80 jackpot on a machine than an $800 jackpot.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "leetcrowell2" <lee.crowell@...> wrote:

The question is- what would Mickey Crimm have done?

Just my .02- Thanks, Lee.

#8

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/05/video-poker-hacking-dismissed/

I don't know if it's possible to reclaim this thread title from the digression into my personal problems/shortcomings, but the above article is a follow-up to the original topic.

Bob

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#9

Bob,

Thanks for the update.

Don the Dentist

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bob Dancer <bobdancervp@...> wrote:

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/05/video-poker-hacking-dismissed/

I don't know if it's possible to reclaim this thread title from the digression into my personal problems/shortcomings, but the above article is a follow-up to the original topic.

Bob

#10

Now that all 4 Ohio casinos are open, I will be updating the information in my tax book. I need some input from players with personal experiences in those casinos since I am not finding complete information online. Here is some of the information I have gathered, but would appreciate any corrections or additional details.

As of January 1, 2013, Ohio residents got a new state tax break they did not have previously, deducting gambling losses from gambling wins like the federal allows.

I believe the following CITY tax rates are correct but would appreciate any additional information:

Columbus: 2.5% applies to both city residents (both for winnings inside and outside of the city, i.e., in Las Vegas) and to non-residents who hit a W-2G jackpot in the Columbus casino. A quirk here is that this city tax goes contrary to the new state tax break and does not allow deduction of losses for residents or non-residents unless they are professional gamblers. http://www.taxandcontroversy.com/2013/01/gambling-income-in-the-city-of-columbus-ohio-is-now-taxable.html

Cleveland: 2% only on residents

Cincinnati: 2.1% on residents and non-residents

Toledo: 2.25% with a $2500 exemption that is claimed by filing a Toledo City tax return

I believe Ohio does NOT take out STATE taxes at the time you are paid a W-2G jackpot, correct? However, do all or some of the above 4 cities take out the CITY tax at that time? I think I read that Toledo and Columbus withhold city taxes but not sure about the other two.

TIA for any input!

···

------------------------------------------
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#11

Yes they take out state taxes right away, and give you the choice to have 20% taken out for federal taxes. The big difference when gambling in Ohio that people should be aware of is that: If you owe back taxes to the state of Ohio or the feds; or if you are behind on child support or owe any money to the state of Ohio they will deduct it from your W2G generated winnings and give you the difference, if any at all. Twice now I have seen guys win a W2G generating jackpot at Horseshoe Cincinnati and the staff comes back with a piece of paper that they sign, and then they just walk away. If your money is confiscated all details will be explained on that piece of paper you sign, but the staff seems to be trained not to explain anything to the people this happens to.

#12

I won a jackpot , I live in New York State and they
informed me that they had to take out 6%

I don't if I get to deduct that 6% on my tax return

William Lobuzzetta
lobo1971l@aim.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Queen of Comps <queenofcomps@cox.net>
To: vpFREE <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, May 10, 2013 4:45 am
Subject: [vpFREE] Ohio gambling tax considerations

Now that all 4 Ohio casinos are open, I will be updating the information in my tax book. I need some input from players with personal experiences in those casinos since I am not finding complete information online. Here is some of the information I have gathered, but would appreciate any corrections or additional details.

As of January 1, 2013, Ohio residents got a new state tax break they did not have previously, deducting gambling losses from gambling wins like the federal allows.

I believe the following CITY tax rates are correct but would appreciate any additional information:

Columbus: 2.5% applies to both city residents (both for winnings inside and outside of the city, i.e., in Las Vegas) and to non-residents who hit a W-2G jackpot in the Columbus casino. A quirk here is that this city tax goes contrary to the new state tax break and does not allow deduction of losses for residents or non-residents unless they are professional gamblers. http://www.taxandcontroversy.com/2013/01/gambling-income-in-the-city-of-columbus-ohio-is-now-taxable.html

Cleveland: 2% only on residents

Cincinnati: 2.1% on residents and non-residents

Toledo: 2.25% with a $2500 exemption that is claimed by filing a Toledo City tax return

I believe Ohio does NOT take out STATE taxes at the time you are paid a W-2G jackpot, correct? However, do all or some of the above 4 cities take out the CITY tax at that time? I think I read that Toledo and Columbus withhold city taxes but not sure about the other two.

TIA for any input!

------------------------------------------
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#13

<<I won a jackpot , I live in New York State and they
informed me that they had to take out 6%>>

Which Ohio casino was this?

I am still needing more Ohio information from people with personal experiences there. Please specify which casino you visited since each of the 4 cities have their own city tax rate and specific rules.

···

------------------------------------------
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: Queen of Comps

Now that all 4 Ohio casinos are open, I will be updating the information in my tax book. I need some input from players with personal experiences in those casinos since I am not finding complete information online. Here is some of the information I have gathered, but would appreciate any corrections or additional details.

As of January 1, 2013, Ohio residents got a new state tax break they did not have previously, deducting gambling losses from gambling wins like the federal allows.

I believe the following CITY tax rates are correct but would appreciate any additional information:

Columbus: 2.5% applies to both city residents (both for winnings inside and outside of the city, i.e., in Las Vegas) and to non-residents who hit a W-2G jackpot in the Columbus casino. A quirk here is that this city tax goes contrary to the new state tax break and does not allow deduction of losses for residents or non-residents unless they are professional gamblers. http://www.taxandcontroversy.com/2013/01/gambling-income-in-the-city-of-columbus-ohio-is-now-taxable.html

Cleveland: 2% only on residents

Cincinnati: 2.1% on residents and non-residents

Toledo: 2.25% with a $2500 exemption that is claimed by filing a Toledo City tax return

I believe Ohio does NOT take out STATE taxes at the time you are paid a W-2G jackpot, correct? However, do all or some of the above 4 cities take out the CITY tax at that time? I think I read that Toledo and Columbus withhold city taxes but not sure about the other two.

TIA for any input!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#14

Harrah's Horseshoe Casino Cleveland Ohio

William Lobuzzetta
lobo1971l@aim.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Queen of Comps <queenofcomps@cox.net>
To: vpFREE <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, May 11, 2013 1:22 am
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Ohio gambling tax considerations

<<I won a jackpot , I live in New York State and they
informed me that they had to take out 6%>>

Which Ohio casino was this?

I am still needing more Ohio information from people with personal experiences there. Please specify which casino you visited since each of the 4 cities have their own city tax rate and specific rules.

------------------------------------------
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: Queen of Comps

Now that all 4 Ohio casinos are open, I will be updating the information in my tax book. I need some input from players with personal experiences in those casinos since I am not finding complete information online. Here is some of the information I have gathered, but would appreciate any corrections or additional details.

As of January 1, 2013, Ohio residents got a new state tax break they did not have previously, deducting gambling losses from gambling wins like the federal allows.

I believe the following CITY tax rates are correct but would appreciate any additional information:

Columbus: 2.5% applies to both city residents (both for winnings inside and outside of the city, i.e., in Las Vegas) and to non-residents who hit a W-2G jackpot in the Columbus casino. A quirk here is that this city tax goes contrary to the new state tax break and does not allow deduction of losses for residents or non-residents unless they are professional gamblers. http://www.taxandcontroversy.com/2013/01/gambling-income-in-the-city-of-columbus-ohio-is-now-taxable.html

Cleveland: 2% only on residents

Cincinnati: 2.1% on residents and non-residents

Toledo: 2.25% with a $2500 exemption that is claimed by filing a Toledo City tax return

I believe Ohio does NOT take out STATE taxes at the time you are paid a W-2G jackpot, correct? However, do all or some of the above 4 cities take out the CITY tax at that time? I think I read that Toledo and Columbus withhold city taxes but not sure about the other two.

TIA for any input!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15

<<I won a jackpot in Cleveland , I live in New York State and they
informed me that they had to take out 6%>>

Thanx for this information from Cleveland casino. Now – anyone hit a taxable jackpot in the other 3 cities? Resident or non-resident? Which city?

···

------------------------------------------
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: Queen of Comps

Now that all 4 Ohio casinos are open, I will be updating the information in my tax book. I need some input from players with personal experiences in those casinos since I am not finding complete information online. Here is some of the information I have gathered, but would appreciate any corrections or additional details.

As of January 1, 2013, Ohio residents got a new state tax break they did not have previously, deducting gambling losses from gambling wins like the federal allows.

I believe the following CITY tax rates are correct but would appreciate any additional information:

Columbus: 2.5% applies to both city residents (both for winnings inside and outside of the city, i.e., in Las Vegas) and to non-residents who hit a W-2G jackpot in the Columbus casino. A quirk here is that this city tax goes contrary to the new state tax break and does not allow deduction of losses for residents or non-residents unless they are professional gamblers. http://www.taxandcontroversy.com/2013/01/gambling-income-in-the-city-of-columbus-ohio-is-now-taxable.html

Cleveland: 2% only on residents

Cincinnati: 2.1% on residents and non-residents

Toledo: 2.25% with a $2500 exemption that is claimed by filing a Toledo City tax return

I believe Ohio does NOT take out STATE taxes at the time you are paid a W-2G jackpot, correct? However, do all or some of the above 4 cities take out the CITY tax at that time? I think I read that Toledo and Columbus withhold city taxes but not sure about the other two.

TIA for any input!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#16

<<Yes they take out state taxes right away, and give you the choice to have 20% taken out for federal taxes. The big difference when gambling in Ohio that people should be aware of is that: If you owe back taxes to the state of Ohio or the feds; or if you are behind on child support or owe any money to the state of Ohio they will deduct it from your W2G generated winnings and give you the difference, if any at all. >>

Was this in Cincinnati? Did they take out both state and city taxes? Do you know the % of each or the total?

···

------------------------------------------
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#17

Yes, in Cincinnati. City is 3%, I can't recall what the state was. And yes, they automatically take out city and state. If you also have them withhold the 20% federal, it ends up being almost 40% of your win between the three.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Queen of Comps" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:

<<Yes they take out state taxes right away, and give you the choice to have 20% taken out for federal taxes. The big difference when gambling in Ohio that people should be aware of is that: If you owe back taxes to the state of Ohio or the feds; or if you are behind on child support or owe any money to the state of Ohio they will deduct it from your W2G generated winnings and give you the difference, if any at all. >>

Was this in Cincinnati? Did they take out both state and city taxes? Do you know the % of each or the total?

------------------------------------------
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#18

The maximum Ohio tax rate is 6% on income OVER $200K. And Ohio now allows gambling loss to offset gambling wins. Why in the world you would have them hold almost 40% is beyond me.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tangboy5000" <tangboy5000@...> wrote:

Yes, in Cincinnati. City is 3%, I can't recall what the state was. And yes, they automatically take out city and state. If you also have them withhold the 20% federal, it ends up being almost 40% of your win between the three.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Queen of Comps" <queenofcomps@> wrote:
>
> <<Yes they take out state taxes right away, and give you the choice to have 20% taken out for federal taxes. The big difference when gambling in Ohio that people should be aware of is that: If you owe back taxes to the state of Ohio or the feds; or if you are behind on child support or owe any money to the state of Ohio they will deduct it from your W2G generated winnings and give you the difference, if any at all. >>
>
> Was this in Cincinnati? Did they take out both state and city taxes? Do you know the % of each or the total?
>
> ------------------------------------------
> Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
> http://queenofcomps.com/
> You can read my blog at
> http://jscott.lvablog.com/
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

#19

<<Yes, in Cincinnati. City is 3%, I can't recall what the state was. And yes, they automatically take out city and state. If you also have them withhold the 20% federal, it ends up being almost 40% of your win between the three.>>

Are you sure of this 3% – I had previous info saying it was 2.1%. Could you check your W2-G?

···

------------------------------------------
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/V/Links.htm

Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use • Send us Feedback .

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#20

The biggest change for Ohio residents is being able to offset win.
How this got included is a good example for other states that are still in the dark ages.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Queen of Comps" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:

<<Yes, in Cincinnati. City is 3%, I can't recall what the state was. And yes, they automatically take out city and state. If you also have them withhold the 20% federal, it ends up being almost 40% of your win between the three.>>

Are you sure of this 3% â€" I had previous info saying it was 2.1%. Could you check your W2-G?
------------------------------------------
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/V/Links.htm

Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use • Send us Feedback .

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]