_Click here: DailyTech - Man May be Sent to Prison for Exploiting Firmware
Bug in Poker Machine_
(http://www.dailytech.com/Man+May+be+Sent+to+Prison+for+Exploiting+Firmware+Bug+in+Poker+Machine/article31467.htm)
Karen
Gigi
(\_____/)
(=?@?=)
(")____(")
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
google.com/search?q=igt+double+up+bug
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, krallison416@... wrote:
_Click here: DailyTech - Man May be Sent to Prison for Exploiting Firmware
Bug in Poker Machine_
(http://www.dailytech.com/Man+May+be+Sent+to+Prison+for+Exploiting+Firmware+Bug+in+Poker+Machine/article31467.htm)Karen
Gigi(\_____/)
(=?@?=)
(")____(")[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm not at alll satisfied that the feds are properly prosecuting this case. I see it as a tenuous application of the cited law, at best.
That said, I have no empathy for the charged individual. His exploit, at heart, amounts to theft. Chalk it up to an opportunity of negligence by the mfr and/or casino,if you will. That in no way excuses taking advantage of the lapse to fill one's pockets.
- H.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, krallison416@... wrote:
_Click here: DailyTech - Man May be Sent to Prison for Exploiting Firmware
Bug in Poker Machine_
(http://www.dailytech.com/Man+May+be+Sent+to+Prison+for+Exploiting+Firmware+Bug+in+Poker+Machine/article31467.htm)Karen
Gigi(\_____/)
(=?@?=)
(")____(")[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Because he went to many casinos, it at first seemed wrong to me. But the casinos have changed the payback on games at many casinos. So he just gave them payback.
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
From: harry.porter@verizon.net
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 20:02:16 +0000
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Check out DailyTech - Man May be Sent to Prison for Exploiting Firmware Bug i
I'm not at alll satisfied that the feds are properly prosecuting this case. I see it as a tenuous application of the cited law, at best.
That said, I have no empathy for the charged individual. His exploit, at heart, amounts to theft. Chalk it up to an opportunity of negligence by the mfr and/or casino,if you will. That in no way excuses taking advantage of the lapse to fill one's pockets.
- H.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, krallison416@... wrote:
_Click here: DailyTech - Man May be Sent to Prison for Exploiting Firmware
Bug in Poker Machine_
(http://www.dailytech.com/Man+May+be+Sent+to+Prison+for+Exploiting+Firmware+Bug+in+Poker+Machine/article31467.htm)Karen
Gigi(\_____/)
(=?@?=)
(")____(")[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Don't know why the Fed's are involved at all. This is at best a civil case between IGT and Nestor. Not the job of public servants to do the bidding of corporations.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vp_wiz" <harry.porter@...> wrote:
I'm not at alll satisfied that the feds are properly prosecuting this case. I see it as a tenuous application of the cited law, at best.
That said, I have no empathy for the charged individual. His exploit, at heart, amounts to theft. Chalk it up to an opportunity of negligence by the mfr and/or casino,if you will. That in no way excuses taking advantage of the lapse to fill one's pockets.
- H.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, krallison416@ wrote:
>
> _Click here: DailyTech - Man May be Sent to Prison for Exploiting Firmware
> Bug in Poker Machine_
> (http://www.dailytech.com/Man+May+be+Sent+to+Prison+for+Exploiting+Firmware+Bug+in+Poker+Machine/article31467.htm)
>
> Karen
> Gigi
>
> (\_____/)
> (=?@?=)
> (")____(")
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
When gamblers take advantage of machine programming errors, we now have to be worried about the Federal government doing the bidding of the casinos?
I remember when the Hilton had the pickem's theo/points setup as if they were slot machines. Same thing at the Rampart when they first opened. Federal offenses?
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, ken orgera <keno60@...> wrote:
Because he went to many casinos, it at first seemed wrong to me. But the casinos have changed the payback on games at many casinos. So he just gave them payback.
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
From: harry.porter@...
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 20:02:16 +0000
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Check out DailyTech - Man May be Sent to Prison for Exploiting Firmware Bug iI'm not at alll satisfied that the feds are properly prosecuting this case. I see it as a tenuous application of the cited law, at best.
That said, I have no empathy for the charged individual. His exploit, at heart, amounts to theft. Chalk it up to an opportunity of negligence by the mfr and/or casino,if you will. That in no way excuses taking advantage of the lapse to fill one's pockets.
- H.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, krallison416@ wrote:
>
> _Click here: DailyTech - Man May be Sent to Prison for Exploiting Firmware
> Bug in Poker Machine_
> (http://www.dailytech.com/Man+May+be+Sent+to+Prison+for+Exploiting+Firmware+Bug+in+Poker+Machine/article31467.htm)
>
> Karen
> Gigi
>
> (\_____/)
> (=?@?=)
> (")____(")
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From John: Arrangements for Steve have been finalized. Viewing and Services will be at the Palm Mortuary, 7400 West Cheyenne on Wednesday. Viewing at noon and services at 1:00.
Thank you to all who replied to my first post. Your kind remarks were deeply appreciated.
Brad and I will be there and perhaps some friends from the old Skip’s group.
------------------------------------------
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
How can this not be considered cheating?
They've manipulated a situation so that they would be paid multiple times on a single betting transaction and at greater than the advertised odds. How is this not in violation of the posted rules?
While I agree this is not a legitimate hacking case and I don't see how it should be a wire fraud case, it should certainly be prosecuted. To me it would be the same as playing a $100 hand of blackjack, winning and getting paid, somehow distracting a not-so-bright dealer so that you can collect your win and pad the bet with a stack of black chips and getting paid again on that.
The only difference between cheating a machine and cheating a human dealer is that a lot of people apparently feel they have a better chance of getting away with it on a machine. Then when they do get caught they feel like they should just be able to play stupid and get a slap on the wrist.
How can this not be considered cheating?
Well, the Feds don't seem to think it is cheating. They have dropped the hacking charges.
They've manipulated a situation so that they would be paid multiple times on a single betting transaction and at greater than the advertised odds. How is this not in violation of the posted rules?
What posted rules? And all he did was press some buttons. Doesn't IGT have some responsibility for the integrity of the machine?
While I agree this is not a legitimate hacking case and I don't see how it should be a wire fraud case, it should certainly be prosecuted. To me it would be the same as playing a $100 hand of blackjack, winning and getting paid, somehow distracting a not-so-bright dealer so that you can collect your win and pad the bet with a stack of black chips and getting paid again on that.
Your example is a lot different than the video poker example. This player doesn't 'distract' the machine. He stumbled on a key sequence ( either intentionally put into the software or not caught during the debug phase) and used it. Unethical? Maybe. Illegal? A much less clearcut answer. And I'm pretty sure there are written rules about past posting at table games. What written rule did this person violate?
The only difference between cheating a machine and cheating a human dealer is that a lot of people apparently feel they have a better chance of getting away with it on a machine. Then when they do get caught they feel like they should just be able to play stupid and get a slap on the wrist.
Or they feel that huge, billion dollar companies should be responsible for the product they present to their customers.
IGT let a horrible situation get out into the field. This person make some money on it and by his greed exposed the issue. IGT should thank him.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "seedub49" <seedub49@...> wrote:
johnnyzee48127 wrote:
there are written rules about past posting at table games. What written rule did this person violate?
When a $5 machine, I believe at Caesars Palace something like 10 or 15
years ago, gave 20 credits for each $20 bill that was inserted, there
was no written rule violated, but I believe the people who took
advantage of it faced criminal charges. If I had been one of them and
if the people in this case don't face similar charges, I'd scream
bloody murder.
IGT let a horrible situation get out into the field. This person make some money on it and by his greed exposed the issue. IGT should thank him.
If a bank gets robbed, the bank should thank the robbers for exposing
their vulnerability.
Well, the Feds don't seem to think it is cheating. They have dropped the hacking charges.
Actually that just means they don't think it is hacking. Neither do I. The fraud charges are still in effect.
What posted rules? And all he did was press some buttons.
The paytable for one. The paytable says how much you will be paid for any given winning hand. They collected that amount, "pressed some buttons," went back to the game and collected 10x that amount on the SAME winning hand (not having placed an additional bet on that game)
> While I agree this is not a legitimate hacking case and I don't see how it should be a wire fraud case, it should certainly be prosecuted. To me it would be the same as playing a $100 hand of blackjack, winning and getting paid, somehow distracting a not-so-bright dealer so that you can collect your win and pad the bet with a stack of black chips and getting paid again on that.
Your example is a lot different than the video poker example. This player doesn't 'distract' the machine. He stumbled on a key sequence ( either intentionally put into the software or not caught during the debug phase) and used it. Unethical? Maybe. Illegal? A much less clearcut answer. And I'm pretty sure there are written rules about past posting at table games. What written rule did this person violate?
Don't see how it is much different. Whether it is by "distraction" or not, the fact remains that they placed a wager, collecting the appropriate amount when they won, orchestrated a situation to get paid again on the SAME winning wager at 10x the posted payout.
Or they feel that huge, billion dollar companies should be responsible for the product they present to their customers.
So because a billion dollar company puts out a product that can be used unethically, anyone who uses it in such a way should not be held accountable? By that rationale we should release everyone that has ever used a weapon unethically.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "johnnyzee48127" <greeklandjohnny@...> wrote:
Actually a more appropriate comparison...
Suppose a billion dollar lock-making company happened to make a master key that could open all the locks they manufactured. Then somehow this key was accidentally mailed to some random person. By your argument, because the company screwed up, this person should not be held accountable if they use this key to open every lock they can and steal the contents of the containers those locks secured. Obviously the company screwed up, but that doesn't give a person a get out of jail free card if they decide to use the mistake to steal.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "seedub49" <seedub49@...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "johnnyzee48127" <greeklandjohnny@> wrote:
>
> Or they feel that huge, billion dollar companies should be responsible for the product they present to their customers.
>
So because a billion dollar company puts out a product that can be used unethically, anyone who uses it in such a way should not be held accountable? By that rationale we should release everyone that has ever used a weapon unethically.
This discussion will probably end on vpfreevp but I'll give it one more shot.
Did the person involved know what he was doing? Sure.
Did he find a situation that wasn't what the casino nor IGT intended to have happen? Sure
Did he take advantage of the situation? Sure
Did he break any laws? Not so sure.
If a dealer over pays you on your wager and you don't return it, are you breaking any laws? I don't think so.
The crux of the argue seems to be whether his knowledge and use of a hidden feature in the program is illegal. All of this discussion is about illegal and not immoral.
The bill reader error is a little bit different. The bill reader isn't a gambling device. The video poker game is. I'm sure there are different rules for different devices.
Hey Bob Dancer, maybe you can discuss this situation on one of your shows? I think this would be a topic of interest to a lot of people.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "seedub49" <seedub49@...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "johnnyzee48127" <greeklandjohnny@> wrote:
>
> Well, the Feds don't seem to think it is cheating. They have dropped the hacking charges.Actually that just means they don't think it is hacking. Neither do I. The fraud charges are still in effect.
>
> What posted rules? And all he did was press some buttons.The paytable for one. The paytable says how much you will be paid for any given winning hand. They collected that amount, "pressed some buttons," went back to the game and collected 10x that amount on the SAME winning hand (not having placed an additional bet on that game)
>
>
> > While I agree this is not a legitimate hacking case and I don't see how it should be a wire fraud case, it should certainly be prosecuted. To me it would be the same as playing a $100 hand of blackjack, winning and getting paid, somehow distracting a not-so-bright dealer so that you can collect your win and pad the bet with a stack of black chips and getting paid again on that.
>
> Your example is a lot different than the video poker example. This player doesn't 'distract' the machine. He stumbled on a key sequence ( either intentionally put into the software or not caught during the debug phase) and used it. Unethical? Maybe. Illegal? A much less clearcut answer. And I'm pretty sure there are written rules about past posting at table games. What written rule did this person violate?Don't see how it is much different. Whether it is by "distraction" or not, the fact remains that they placed a wager, collecting the appropriate amount when they won, orchestrated a situation to get paid again on the SAME winning wager at 10x the posted payout.
> Or they feel that huge, billion dollar companies should be responsible for the product they present to their customers.
>
So because a billion dollar company puts out a product that can be used unethically, anyone who uses it in such a way should not be held accountable? By that rationale we should release everyone that has ever used a weapon unethically.
A slot tech mistakenly put a dollar denom bill acceptor into a $5 machine.
This phenomen happened from time to time when I was in Nevada and greedy dimwit hustlers would take a couple of fills then haul ass.
It happened to me one time at the Riverside in Laughlin. I was spinning off a dollar Diamond Mine and the machine quit taking bills. I needed some tokes so I shoved a twenty into the machine on my left and went to hit the cashout button, but the credit meter started zooming up and didn't quit until it got to 400 credits. Some slot tech had mistakenly put a nickel bill acceptor into a dollar machine.
I leaned back in my chair,thinking about what I should do, for a few seconds. I glanced up at the ceiling without moving my head. Eyes in the Sky's were everywhere. I sat there until a floor person came along.
"I got a problem with this machine" I said "I stuck a twenty in it and it racked up 400 credits. I need my twenty dollars back."
"Oh, my!" she said. "I'll go get someone."
A few minutes later an assistant slot manager showed up and asked me what the problem was.
"I put a twenty in this machine and it racked up 400 credits. I need my twenty dollars back."
"Wow!" he said. "It would have taken us forever to figure that out! You're an honest guy. I'll get your twenty to you in a few minutes."
He opened the machine and shut it down, sticking the log book in the window. Yeah, sure I'm an honest guy. Little did he know. I was making a good living in the Riverside and wasn't about to blow it for some short end money.
In those days, anytime a machine took a fill, the floor attendent recorded the date and time in the log book of the machine. Three fills in a 24 hour period and the floor person was required to get a slot mechanic to check the machine to see if it was overpaying, or if anything else was causing a problem. That's why most of the cowardly hustlers would just take two fills then haul ass.
But the sharper and braver crooked hustler played it a different way. He played for hand pays. He's getting a $3 spin for 15 cents. A 90% machine becomes an 1800% machine. In those days a $400 jackpot or higher was a handpay. He played for handpays as long as he felt like he could get away with it. Then he hauled ass without taking a single fill.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <007@...> wrote:
johnnyzee48127 wrote:
When a $5 machine, I believe at Caesars Palace something like 10 or 15 years ago, gave 20 credits for each $20 bill that was inserted, there was no written rule violated, but I believe the people who took
advantage of it faced criminal charges. If I had been one of them and if the people in this case don't face similar charges, I'd scream
bloody murder.