vpFREE2 Forums

Changing Denominations

What should a player do? The player normally plays at one
denomination, but decides to go up in denomination mainly
to meet a short term coin in goal?

The player had poor results at the higher denomination play.
Assume that the player has the bankroll to play the higher
denomination and it is the identical game and pay schedule.
Should the player remain at this higher denomination until
his return at this higher denomination is closer to what
has been his is previous returns at the lower denomination?

This could come from moving for the short term from quarters
to dollars, or $1 to $5. It would be difficult to drop back
to the lower denomination and make back any losses that
occurred on that temporary move up in denomination.

Thanks,

Bob

The first question I would ask is "What short term coin-in goal is worth the potential loss?"

Let's assume that you need to run through $XXXXX coin in before midnight on MM/DD/YYY in order to qualify for a particular status for a year, or be awarded a DEFINITE item that is desirable to you, say a "free" cruise or whatever it is THAT HAS SOME QUANTITATIVE VALUE TO YOU.

You are within $YYYY coin in of achieving that desired item, or status. By increasing your denomination, you are assuming 4 to 5 times the amount of risk of loss per hand compared to the lower denomination. So, if your short term results are bad, that is one of the factors that you should have considered BEFORE moving up, and that possible outcome should have been weighed vs. the value of what you will receive.

But once the results are in, you should 1.) have gotten what you were playing for 2.) written off the loss as lost 3.) go back to your normal style/amount of play. There are many old sayings, don't throw good money after bad, scared money never wins, don't beat a dead horse, etc. But IMHO, you normally play in your comfort zone and perhaps by moving up you moved away from that zone. I'd write off the lost money, be happy I got what I wanted, and go back to playing my normal game that I enjoy.

Guru

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

···

________________________________
From: futrend <futrend@yahoo.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, May 3, 2010 1:20:05 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Changing Denominations

What should a player do? The player normally plays at one
denomination, but decides to go up in denomination mainly
to meet a short term coin in goal?

The player had poor results at the higher denomination play.
Assume that the player has the bankroll to play the higher
denomination and it is the identical game and pay schedule.
Should the player remain at this higher denomination until
his return at this higher denomination is closer to what
has been his is previous returns at the lower denomination?

This could come from moving for the short term from quarters
to dollars, or $1 to $5. It would be difficult to drop back
to the lower denomination and make back any losses that
occurred on that temporary move up in denomination.

Thanks,

Bob

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

futrend wrote:

What should a player do? The player normally plays at one
denomination, but decides to go up in denomination mainly
to meet a short term coin in goal?

The player had poor results at the higher denomination play.
Assume that the player has the bankroll to play the higher
denomination and it is the identical game and pay schedule.
Should the player remain at this higher denomination until
his return at this higher denomination is closer to what
has been his is previous returns at the lower denomination?

This could come from moving for the short term from quarters
to dollars, or $1 to $5. It would be difficult to drop back
to the lower denomination and make back any losses that
occurred on that temporary move up in denomination.

GP nails this pretty well. Here's my perspective:

Wins/losses at a higher denomination can't be considered comparable to swings experience at a lower denomination. Therefore, any net loss when discontinuing play at a higher denomination should be considered a permanent bankroll hit (until such time as the play is recommenced).

Continuing play at the higher denomination makes sense only if you have sufficient bankroll to support the risk. There can be circumstances under which short term promotions make higher denomination play feasible that otherwise is best avoided.

It should go without saying that future play offers no assurance that past losses will be reversed. Play motivated by a primary goal of chasing losses is a fool's errand.

Thanks Harry and GP,

Your answers were similar to what I told him. He wanted to
continue playing at the higher denomination for at least
a while and maybe longer, if necessary. He thinks if he has
modest success in the near future at his smaller denomination
he could not recoup his losses.

A couple of other facts. He felt it was a good promotion.
He had two days to meet the play requirement. He did half
the first day and then something happened that limited his
time the second day. In order to complete the play requirement,
he went to the higher denomination and completed play.
His plan was to earn $750 cash and for this he had to play
$50,000 through in two days. His game of choice was 9/6
JoB. He can play that game accurately.

His frustration was that he was up $225 after the first day
of the play requirement at his normal denomination. As luck
can go, he had a losing second day when an unexpected time
limitation forced him to increase denomination. He lost
$1,300 the second day, but got his $750.

He has the bankroll to permanently change denominations.
However, for his normal play expectations, he does not need
to play at a higher denomination. He felt there would be some
added casino benefit giving them a couple days of bigger than
normal play. To maintain his card level, he needs to select
a few days each year to increase his play and he thought this
was one of the days that he might used for that purpose.

Now he feels he is out about $325, after the earned cash back.
He feels he should stay at the higher denomination until he
recoups most of his $1,300 loss from the second day (less
maybe $250 expected losses). He plays accurately and knew
anything could happen playing $50,000 dollars. He thought
that maybe risking $250 in expected normal losses in 9/6 Jacks
was worth going after $750 in cash. He also thought he would
get back $85 minimum additional cash back, plus what ever
extra cash back and other benefits might be generated with his
new short term level of greater coin in.

Everything consider, I do not think he made a bad choice of
going for the $750. Now he wants to remain at the higher level
until he makes back most of his $1,300 second day loss. I told
him there is no guarantee this will ever happen. He believes
in the near future it would not be surprising that he has a good
day in order to make back much of this $1,300. He says he is
prepared to remain at the higher denomination until this happens.
It might need to be a permanent change if he is not lucky.

I think he will eventually go back to the lower denomination.
He says he normally does not need to risk more to get what he
usually wants. He feels he just had some short term bad luck
and does not want to not give himself time for some short term
good luck at the higher denomination.

Now that you know a few more fact, what would you do if you
were in his shoes?

Bob

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vp_wiz" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

futrend wrote:
> What should a player do? The player normally plays at one
> denomination, but decides to go up in denomination mainly
> to meet a short term coin in goal?
>
> The player had poor results at the higher denomination play.
> Assume that the player has the bankroll to play the higher
> denomination and it is the identical game and pay schedule.
> Should the player remain at this higher denomination until
> his return at this higher denomination is closer to what
> has been his is previous returns at the lower denomination?
>
> This could come from moving for the short term from quarters
> to dollars, or $1 to $5. It would be difficult to drop back
> to the lower denomination and make back any losses that
> occurred on that temporary move up in denomination.

GP nails this pretty well. Here's my perspective:

Wins/losses at a higher denomination can't be considered comparable to swings experience at a lower denomination. Therefore, any net loss when discontinuing play at a higher denomination should be considered a permanent bankroll hit (until such time as the play is recommenced).

Continuing play at the higher denomination makes sense only if you have sufficient bankroll to support the risk. There can be circumstances under which short term promotions make higher denomination play feasible that otherwise is best avoided.

It should go without saying that future play offers no assurance that past losses will be reversed. Play motivated by a primary goal of chasing losses is a fool's errand.

futrend wrote:

Thanks Harry and GP,

Your answers were similar to what I told him. He wanted to
continue playing at the higher denomination for at least
a while and maybe longer, if necessary. He thinks if he has
modest success in the near future at his smaller denomination
he could not recoup his losses.

A couple of other facts ... <snip>

Everything consider, I do not think he made a bad choice of
going for the $750. Now he wants to remain at the higher level
until he makes back most of his $1,300 second day loss. I told
him there is no guarantee this will ever happen. He believes
in the near future it would not be surprising that he has a good
day in order to make back much of this $1,300. He says he is
prepared to remain at the higher denomination until this happens.
It might need to be a permanent change if he is not lucky.

I think he will eventually go back to the lower denomination.
He says he normally does not need to risk more to get what he
usually wants. He feels he just had some short term bad luck
and does not want to not give himself time for some short term
good luck at the higher denomination.

Now that you know a few more fact, what would you do if you
were in his shoes?

Well, bear in mind I'm the guy who just wrote of having come off of my last 40K+ hands of Jacks play sustaining a 5% loss. My sense of the probabilities of scoring a win and running with the money in JB is a little negatively skewed just now :wink:

If your friend keeps an accurate play diary, then he should have a decent sense of his prospects ... in which case, the only sage response would be that posed by another "Harry":

"Do you feel lucky?"

Thanks Harry and GP for the responses.

I think he made a reasonable original decision to play and
just got caught in the middle of the promotion needing
to switch denominations. Now he is wondering how to best
handle the near future. In spite of all advice, I believe
he will stay at the higher denomination for a while. It will
prove nothing if he recoups his losses. He can afford the
play, he just doesn't want to play at a higher denominations
all the time.

I think he asked me to confirm what he wanted to do. I told
him my opinion and said I would ask some more experience and knowledgeable people on this forum. With this information
he can make a good choice for his goals and risk tolerance.

Wow, 5% is a lot more than the one half of a percent he thinks
the game plays! He does play a lot and his experiences are
nothing like yours. That is why he think that he just played
too few hands at the higher denomination to have more "normal"
results. I told him the game will not remember that he lost last
time! He does not have a large loss to recoup, so I would think
he is staying in until maybe getting more discourage. If he
recovers his losses this will not prove anything. The new higher
denomination probably will be his current "comfort zone" for
at least a while. So I guess I can see his logic. The only
reason for not making a permanent switch is that he does not
need, or want, that much more coin in for what he can currently
take advantage of. I know he has told me that rather than being bigger at one casino, he would rather diversity his coin in at
a number of other casinos.

Thanks for all the help from both of you and I wished him well.

Bob

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vp_wiz" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

futrend wrote:
>
> Thanks Harry and GP,
>
> Your answers were similar to what I told him. He wanted to
> continue playing at the higher denomination for at least
> a while and maybe longer, if necessary. He thinks if he has
> modest success in the near future at his smaller denomination
> he could not recoup his losses.
>
> A couple of other facts ... <snip>
>
> Everything consider, I do not think he made a bad choice of
> going for the $750. Now he wants to remain at the higher level
> until he makes back most of his $1,300 second day loss. I told
> him there is no guarantee this will ever happen. He believes
> in the near future it would not be surprising that he has a good
> day in order to make back much of this $1,300. He says he is
> prepared to remain at the higher denomination until this happens.
> It might need to be a permanent change if he is not lucky.
>
> I think he will eventually go back to the lower denomination.
> He says he normally does not need to risk more to get what he
> usually wants. He feels he just had some short term bad luck
> and does not want to not give himself time for some short term
> good luck at the higher denomination.
>
> Now that you know a few more fact, what would you do if you
> were in his shoes?

Well, bear in mind I'm the guy who just wrote of having come off of my last 40K+ hands of Jacks play sustaining a 5% loss. My sense of the probabilities of scoring a win and running with the money in JB is a little negatively skewed just now :wink:

If your friend keeps an accurate play diary, then he should have a decent sense of his prospects ... in which case, the only sage response would be that posed by another "Harry":

"Do you feel lucky?"

Can someone please give me an idea of my risk of ruin on the following scenario. I want to play 8/5Bonus VP Triple play at the the dollar level. If I bring 1500 dollars what would be the percentage of going belly up.

Thanks

James Thompson

former HRH Casino Monitor

PS can you show the math, too.

···

To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
From: futrend@yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 06:00:58 +0000
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Changing Denominations

Thanks Harry and GP,

Your answers were similar to what I told him. He wanted to
continue playing at the higher denomination for at least
a while and maybe longer, if necessary. He thinks if he has
modest success in the near future at his smaller denomination
he could not recoup his losses.

A couple of other facts. He felt it was a good promotion.
He had two days to meet the play requirement. He did half
the first day and then something happened that limited his
time the second day. In order to complete the play requirement,
he went to the higher denomination and completed play.
His plan was to earn $750 cash and for this he had to play
$50,000 through in two days. His game of choice was 9/6
JoB. He can play that game accurately.

His frustration was that he was up $225 after the first day
of the play requirement at his normal denomination. As luck
can go, he had a losing second day when an unexpected time
limitation forced him to increase denomination. He lost
$1,300 the second day, but got his $750.

He has the bankroll to permanently change denominations.
However, for his normal play expectations, he does not need
                 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Can someone please give me an idea of my risk of ruin on the following
scenario. I want to play 8/5Bonus VP Triple play at the the dollar
level. If I bring 1500 dollars what would be the percentage of going
belly up.

Since it's a negative game, your risk of ruin is 100%.

You probably mean will the $1500 last you the weekend. You could lose it in
an hour if you get unlucky. If you have average luck it will last 3000 hands
or so unless you hit a Royal.

Cogno

Thanks congo...the weekend is what I meant. i'm a recreational play who counts free rooms and food as part of my return %.

···

To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
From: cognoscienti@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 17:48:02 -0700
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Quick Risk of Ruin Question

Can someone please give me an idea of my risk of ruin on the following
scenario. I want to play 8/5Bonus VP Triple play at the the dollar
level. If I bring 1500 dollars what would be the percentage of going
belly up.

Since it's a negative game, your risk of ruin is 100%.

You probably mean will the $1500 last you the weekend. You could lose it in
an hour if you get unlucky. If you have average luck it will last 3000 hands
or so unless you hit a Royal.

Cogno

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

James,

You can do this yourself with Dancer's "Video Poker for Winners".

..... bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, James Thompson <jamesgthompson@...> wrote:

Can someone please give me an idea of my risk of ruin on the following scenario. I want to play 8/5Bonus VP Triple play at the the dollar level. If I bring 1500 dollars what would be the percentage of going belly up.

Thanks

James Thompson

He is probably interested in "short-term" risk of ruin, specifically for that weekend trip. That is where VPW is so GREAT (in my opinion, of course).

..... bl

···

Since it's a negative game, your risk of ruin is 100%.

You probably mean will the $1500 last you the weekend. You could lose it in
an hour if you get unlucky. If you have average luck it will last 3000 hands
or so unless you hit a Royal.

Cogno

I play a lot of 50c triple line bonus poker at Seneca Niagara.

Based on what I've experienced there, and to confirm what another poster has said, if you are unlucky enough to experience one of those brutally vicious sessions, your $1500 will be gone in an hour, plus or minus a few minutes.

If I were heading off for a weekend of 50c triple line bonus poker play, I would want $2000 in my pocket to be sure of being able to ride out a bad session, and play the entire weekend. That means, of course, you need $4000.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, James Thompson <jamesgthompson@...> wrote:

Can someone please give me an idea of my risk of ruin on the following scenario. I want to play 8/5Bonus VP Triple play at the the dollar level. If I bring 1500 dollars what would be the percentage of going belly up.