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CET Win Loss Statement now available

#1

What if you hit a taxable jackpot when playing off the free-play-gift? I've always reported free play as normal play and winnings. After all, the amount you're playing through (say $250 in free play) isn't cash, it is in fact a gift. The casino is free-rolling you. If you lose every hand, nothing happens. But if you do win a hand, that means you win money (duh). And winning money, in any way, shape, or form, is supposed to be reported to the IRS on your tax forms, as far as I know, at least. Sure, you can probably get away with not reporting your free-play winnings/earnings/gifts to the IRS, but that's not a tree I want to climb.

"Jim Engstrom wrote:

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A coupon from Caesars is not money and clearly says so on the coupon. If you lose the coupon (in a machine or otherwise) you have lost no money ...

#2

Well, first of all, I always play my free play on quarter single play machines, so a W2G could not be generated. However, to answer your question, it appears to me that their "gift" of freeplay, ends up with a value of whatever is left at the end of that session. In my contemporaneous handwritten log, I don't mix freeplay results with money out of my pocket results. Whatever I cash out at the end of my "freeplay" session, is what I log as winnings.In all candor, that amount is usually 0 because I normally play until I've lost my freeplay. My only "profit" is represented by whatever reward credits I've accumulated during that period. I realize that the rewards credits have value, but I don't view them as reportable winnings any more than I would with free rooms or meals. If, for some reason, I was playing my freeplay on a dollar machine, AND I hit a hand that generated a W2G, AND I quit before I lost it back to the casino, then, yes, I would log whatever I cashed out as gambling winnings for that session. (How I would handle the face value of the freeplay is another matter). I don't think the IRS would have a problem with that interpretation, when and IF I ever am audited.I've been doing it this way for over 50 years and have never been audited. (I turn 74 tomorrow.) I realize sending an email like this into the public domain could increase the chances of an audit, but I would welcome that as I'm convinced my interpretation is a conservative one. Jim

 What if you hit a taxable jackpot when playing off the free\-play\-gift? I've always reported free play as normal play and winnings\. After all, the amount you're playing through \(say $250 in free play\) isn't cash, it is in fact a gift\. The casino is free\-rolling you\. If you lose every hand, nothing happens\. But if you do win a hand, that means you win money \(duh\)\. And winning money, in any way, shape, or form, is supposed to be reported to the IRS on your tax forms, as far as I know, at least\. Sure, you can probably get away with not reporting your free\-play winnings/earnings/gifts to the IRS, but that's not a tree I want to climb\.

"Jim Engstrom wrote:

A coupon from Caesars is not money and clearly says so on the coupon. If you lose the coupon (in a machine or otherwise) you have lost no money ...

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On Monday, January 5, 2015 11:04 AM, "Shagatola shagatola@yahoo.com [vpFREE]" <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

#3

Just to recap, it sounds like the IRS would have no problem with Jim's reporting. Here's an acid test: Play a session with $100 FSP and $100 of your own cash in the machine. Cash out the session with $150. Gross session winnings of $50 are reportable to the IRS. Bottom line, it's your actual cash flow that should drive your gambling reporting.

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#4

Harry, Works for me---thanks.I guess I've been going to more trouble than necessary to keep it "clean"Thanks for your inputs and Happy New Year. Jim

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On Monday, January 5, 2015 3:31 PM, "harry.porter@verizon.net [vpFREE]" <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
   
Just to recap, it sounds like the IRS would have no problem with Jim's reporting. Here's an acid test: Play a session with $100 FSP and $100 of your own cash in the machine. Cash out the session with $150. Gross session winnings of $50 are reportable to the IRS. Bottom line, it's your actual cash flow that should drive your gambling reporting.

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#5

"Just to recap, it sounds like the IRS would have no problem with Jim's reporting. Here's an acid test: Play a session with $100 FSP and $100 of your own cash in the machine. Cash out the session with $150. Gross session winnings of $50 are reportable to the IRS. Bottom line, it's your actual cash flow that should drive your gambling reporting."

Respectfully disagree. You loaded the machine with $200 in credits and cashed out $150. Bottom line: you lost $50.

.

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#6

Bottom line you put in $100 cash and cashed out $150. The $100 freeplay is not cash and cannot be cashed out until played through once. If you put $200 cash in the machine you would be correct even if $100 cash came from a casino mail coupon. Bottom line $100 free play is not the same as $100 cash.

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#7

Actually, in this example, you loaded the machine with $100 of your money and a coupon that represented a promise to pay actual money once it had been "played through". The value of that "promise to pay" can't be determined until you have played it through. The sticky part is how you treat the remaining real value once the coupon's face value has been played through. I, for one, don't want to open that can of worms with a direct question to the IRS. The next thing you know, they will decide to give a constructive value to free rooms, free food, etc. and we'll all regret we ever brought the subject up. I plan on continuing to keep a detailed contemporaneous log and I won't concern myself with the other issues until if and when I'm audited. Jim

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On Tuesday, January 6, 2015 12:34 AM, "cy4873@hotmail.com [vpFREE]" <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
   
Bottom line you put in $100 cash and cashed out $150. The $100 freeplay is not cash and cannot be cashed out until played through once. If you put $200 cash in the machine you would be correct even if $100 cash came from a casino mail coupon. Bottom line $100 free play is not the same as $100 cash.

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#8

Bottom line, unfortunately, is no matter how much reasonable logic we may put to this question, it is a matter of how the IRS would see this.

And even more unfortunately, there is no way that we can know what the IRS would think.

And, even more and more unfortunately, is the fact that if you ask them, the answer will vary with whom you might ask and when you might ask them,

..... bl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#9

There's a wide range of things in this universe that we can't know for sure.

I take a little more stock in my own background (Wharton degree, corporate finance career) than most off the cuff opinions.

When it comes to personal returns and the IRS, cash flow is going to largely rule the day.

---In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, <bornloser1537@...> wrote :

Bottom line, unfortunately, is no matter how much reasonable logic we may put to this question, it is a matter of how the IRS would see this.

And even more unfortunately, there is no way that we can know what the IRS would think.

And, even more and more unfortunately, is the fact that if you ask them, the answer will vary with whom you might ask and when you might ask them,

..... bl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#10

Harry, Needless to say, I'll defer to your interpretation with those credentials. I'm just a retired airline pilot who got an MBA and CFP designation, but never took advantage of either except for my own personal use. In that I never kept up through CEU courses, my information is, at best, dated. Thanks for your inputs. Jim

···

On Tuesday, January 6, 2015 8:38 AM, "harry.porter@verizon.net [vpFREE]" <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
   

There's a wide range of things in this universe that we can't know for sure.

I take a little more stock in my own background (Wharton degree, corporate finance career) than most off the cuff opinions.

When it comes to personal returns and the IRS, cash flow is going to largely rule the day.

---In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, <bornloser1537@...> wrote :

Bottom line, unfortunately, is no matter how much reasonable logic we may put to this question, it is a matter of how the IRS would see this.

And even more unfortunately, there is no way that we can know what the IRS would think.

And, even more and more unfortunately, is the fact that if you ask them, the answer will vary with whom you might ask and when you might ask them,

..... bl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#11

Bear in mind, I earlier qualified myself as "not an expert". (And, with your background, Jim, if you posed a challenge to my opinion, I'd sit up and take notice.)

I'm inclined to defer to the likes of Marissa Chen, EA (to whom Jean Scott has previously referred us and with whom Jean co-authored the tax guide "Tax Help for Gamblers").

In 2008, I offered up the following post on the subject of tax treatment of FSP/cb:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vpFREE/conversations/messages/89326

---In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, <jimengstrom1@...> wrote :

Harry, Needless to say, I'll defer to your interpretation with those credentials. I'm just a retired airline pilot who got an MBA and CFP designation, but never took advantage of either except for my own personal use. In that I never kept up through CEU courses, my information is, at best, dated. Thanks for your inputs. Jim

···

On Tuesday, January 6, 2015 8:38 AM, "harry.porter@… mailto:harry.porter@… [vpFREE]" <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com mailto:vpF…@…com> wrote:

There's a wide range of things in this universe that we can't know for sure.

I take a little more stock in my own background (Wharton degree, corporate finance career) than most off the cuff opinions.

When it comes to personal returns and the IRS, cash flow is going to largely rule the day.

—In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com mailto:vpF…@…com, <bornloser1537@…> wrote :

Bottom line, unfortunately, is no matter how much reasonable logic we may put to this question, it is a matter of how the IRS would see this.

And even more unfortunately, there is no way that we can know what the IRS would think.

And, even more and more unfortunately, is the fact that if you ask them, the answer will vary with whom you might ask and when you might ask them,

..... bl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#12

There's a wide range of things in this universe that we can't know for sure.

So true, so true!

But, this does render some of us a bit of job security. As a research astronomer, probing the "secrets of the universe" has been my life's work.

VP is just "hobby". <smile>

..... bl

P.S. I wonder whether we may have overlapped a bit, Harry I did get my undergraduate degree in Astronomy from Penn oh so long ago.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#13

Harry wrote:

Bear in mind, I earlier qualified myself as "not an expert". (And, with your background, Jim, if you posed a challenge to my opinion, I'd sit up and take notice.)

I'm inclined to defer to the likes of Marissa Chen, EA (to whom Jean Scott has previously referred us and with whom Jean co-authored the tax guide "Tax Help for Gamblers").

In 2008, I offered up the following post on the subject of tax treatment of FSP/cb:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vpFREE/conversations/messages/89326

I was audited a long time ago and had significant cash back from one
casino. They focused on that, said they'd investigate it in detail,
and at least implied that if there were any discrepancies in that,
they'd expand their investigation to look for other similar
discrepancies. I had no idea, before or since, that it might not be
taxable.