vpFREE2 Forums

Casino Niagara PKM's-Says it's FP,Looks like FP,Is it really FP???

#1

Last sunday I went to play the Full Pay $1.00 Pick'ems at
Casino Niagara located on the third floor near the escalator.
I played three different machines from 11am to approx 11pm
(with breaks). I and the other players that played (and I was
able to check as they were basically the same players during
the time I was there) never scored a better hand beyond a full
house. Even in my worst sessions at Woodbine on the FP PKM's
I or someone else would get a four of a kind after that kind
of play. At my best run on one of the Niagara machines I ran
up the credit meter to $280.00 with a couple of full houses
and other smaller hands and did manage to make it last a
couple of hours.

Maybe it was my imagination,however I began to notice a
pattern emerge. Straights would happen in clumps of two or
three,then flushes would do so too. The most disconcerting
thing was that a three of a kind would be dealt three or four
times within a couple of hands of each other. No fourth ever
appeared to complete a quad. Then a long dry spell and then
again the several three of a kind with no completing card for
a quad. This happened six to seven times during my play at
each machine.The only seemingly truly random event was the
full houses when they appeared.

I left convinced that either the hold on these machines is
huge or they have been truly doctored where the top three
payouts are concerned, only because absolutely no one on the
bank of machines I played at got a better hand than the full
house at any betting denomination.

Also I found the casino truly smoky and scuzzy (weird
considering Ontario is so non- smoking) and would avoid
recoommending it to anyone.

#2

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "mike.tigger" <mike69tigg@...>
wrote:

Did you also notice how many times 4 to the flush and straight come
up without catching the fifth card?
These are slot machines set at 87% disguised as VP machines.

···

Last sunday I went to play the Full Pay $1.00 Pick'ems at
Casino Niagara located on the third floor near the escalator.
I played three different machines from 11am to approx 11pm
(with breaks). I and the other players that played (and I was
able to check as they were basically the same players during
the time I was there) never scored a better hand beyond a full
house. Even in my worst sessions at Woodbine on the FP PKM's
I or someone else would get a four of a kind after that kind
of play. At my best run on one of the Niagara machines I ran
up the credit meter to $280.00 with a couple of full houses
and other smaller hands and did manage to make it last a
couple of hours.

Maybe it was my imagination,however I began to notice a
pattern emerge. Straights would happen in clumps of two or
three,then flushes would do so too. The most disconcerting
thing was that a three of a kind would be dealt three or four
times within a couple of hands of each other. No fourth ever
appeared to complete a quad. Then a long dry spell and then
again the several three of a kind with no completing card for
a quad. This happened six to seven times during my play at
each machine.The only seemingly truly random event was the
full houses when they appeared.

I left convinced that either the hold on these machines is
huge or they have been truly doctored where the top three
payouts are concerned, only because absolutely no one on the
bank of machines I played at got a better hand than the full
house at any betting denomination.

Also I found the casino truly smoky and scuzzy (weird
considering Ontario is so non- smoking) and would avoid
recoommending it to anyone.

#3

Come to think of it that makes perfect sense. Of course you cannot get any information that
is reliable as to what the actual hold is in Ontario as the provincial government (who IMHO
are all hypocritical crooks anyway) does not release figures. For all we know it could be 50%!
Which independent body is going to tell us any different?

MT

···

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "tghysel" <tghysel@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "mike.tigger" <mike69tigg@>
wrote:

Did you also notice how many times 4 to the flush and straight come
up without catching the fifth card?
These are slot machines set at 87% disguised as VP machines.

#4

According to the Alcohol and Gaming Comission of Ontario (AGCO), slot
machines are required to return at least 85%. However, this is a mute
point since, according to the slot machine reviews in Strictly Slots
magazine, slot machine manufacturers don't offer machines with payouts
of less than 85%! Since Bally Gaming is the manufacturer of the Pick'em
machines, I doubt that the machines are "rigged". I think that you are
just experiencing the normal fluctuations of the game. Replies
appreciated.

Come to think of it that makes perfect sense. Of course you cannot

get any information that

is reliable as to what the actual hold is in Ontario as the

provincial government (who IMHO

are all hypocritical crooks anyway) does not release figures. For all

we know it could be 50%!

···

Which independent body is going to tell us any different?

#5

I agree. Considering that a quad in Pick-em occurs every 2360 hands which is once every 4 hours or so, it is not hard to see periods of 12 hours of play without a quad.
It would be like not hitting a quad in jacks or better after playing for 2 hours, ugly, but certainly doesn't stretch the realms of probability.

Regards
A.P.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: djmcosmo
  To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 12:30 PM
  Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Casino Niagara PKM's-Says it's FP,Looks like FP,Is it really FP???

  According to the Alcohol and Gaming Comission of Ontario (AGCO), slot
  machines are required to return at least 85%. However, this is a mute
  point since, according to the slot machine reviews in Strictly Slots
  magazine, slot machine manufacturers don't offer machines with payouts
  of less than 85%! Since Bally Gaming is the manufacturer of the Pick'em
  machines, I doubt that the machines are "rigged". I think that you are
  just experiencing the normal fluctuations of the game. Replies
  appreciated.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#6

With all due respect, I still don't buy it. Maybe over the course of constant play on one ONE
machine maybe. But over a 12 hour period over 5 machines with 5 people playing? No
way.

And who created the AGCO in the first place? Those who benefit the most from gaming-
The government. All they are about are the fees they collect and not to let illegal (read
competition) gaming happen anywhere in the Province. So that immediately suspends any
belief as to what the minimum hold can or should be or if it is indeed regulated.

And do you really think that a cross-border multi-million order of gaming machines from
a manufacturer such as Bally's could not be customized to whatever payout (or non as the
case applies) the buyer requests? Slot Machine manufacturer's may SAY that none of their
machines offer payouts less than 85%, (sort of like a default setting) however there is
nothing to stop them customizing an order for the right price or giving their customers
the tools to do so if the machines are outside a US gaming juristiction.

Sorry to sound so cynical but I have been playing too long and a lot of Pick'em over the
years not to feel that my experience at Casino Niagara was definitely a scam. They can get
away with it because of the transient nature of the players there. If those machines were at
Woodbine or anywhere else that has a fairly regular clientele they would remain empty.

Cheers,

MO

I agree. Considering that a quad in Pick-em occurs every 2360 hands which is once

every 4 hours or so, it is not hard to see periods of 12 hours of play without a quad.

It would be like not hitting a quad in jacks or better after playing for 2 hours, ugly, but

certainly doesn't stretch the realms of probability.

Regards
A.P.
  From: djmcosmo
  To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 12:30 PM
  Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Casino Niagara PKM's-Says it's FP,Looks like FP,Is it really

FP???

···

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Pearson" <a-p@...> wrote:

  ----- Original Message -----

  According to the Alcohol and Gaming Comission of Ontario (AGCO), slot
  machines are required to return at least 85%. However, this is a mute
  point since, according to the slot machine reviews in Strictly Slots
  magazine, slot machine manufacturers don't offer machines with payouts
  of less than 85%! Since Bally Gaming is the manufacturer of the Pick'em
  machines, I doubt that the machines are "rigged". I think that you are
  just experiencing the normal fluctuations of the game. Replies
  appreciated.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#7

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "mofromto2" <mofromto@...>
wrote:

I have seen Bally VP machines in New York Racinos that have a little
angel come out and adds points if you don't play the machine correct.
This happens because the machine is set to pay at a certain
percentage and alot of people playing these things have no idea what
they are doing. To think all machines from Bally or IGT are random is
a bit naive..

With all due respect, I still don't buy it. Maybe over the course

of constant play on one ONE

machine maybe. But over a 12 hour period over 5 machines with 5

people playing? No

way.

And who created the AGCO in the first place? Those who benefit the

most from gaming-

The government. All they are about are the fees they collect and

not to let illegal (read

competition) gaming happen anywhere in the Province. So that

immediately suspends any

belief as to what the minimum hold can or should be or if it is

indeed regulated.

And do you really think that a cross-border multi-million order of

gaming machines from

a manufacturer such as Bally's could not be customized to whatever

payout (or non as the

case applies) the buyer requests? Slot Machine manufacturer's may

SAY that none of their

machines offer payouts less than 85%, (sort of like a default

setting) however there is

nothing to stop them customizing an order for the right price or

giving their customers

the tools to do so if the machines are outside a US gaming

juristiction.

Sorry to sound so cynical but I have been playing too long and a

lot of Pick'em over the

years not to feel that my experience at Casino Niagara was

definitely a scam. They can get

away with it because of the transient nature of the players there.

If those machines were at

Woodbine or anywhere else that has a fairly regular clientele they

would remain empty.

Cheers,

MO

>
> I agree. Considering that a quad in Pick-em occurs every 2360

hands which is once

every 4 hours or so, it is not hard to see periods of 12 hours of

play without a quad.

> It would be like not hitting a quad in jacks or better after

playing for 2 hours, ugly, but

certainly doesn't stretch the realms of probability.
>
> Regards
> A.P.
> From: djmcosmo
> To: vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 12:30 PM
> Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Casino Niagara PKM's-Says it's

FP,Looks like FP,Is it really

FP???
>
>
> According to the Alcohol and Gaming Comission of Ontario

(AGCO), slot

> machines are required to return at least 85%. However, this is

a mute

> point since, according to the slot machine reviews in Strictly

Slots

> magazine, slot machine manufacturers don't offer machines with

payouts

> of less than 85%! Since Bally Gaming is the manufacturer of the

Pick'em

> machines, I doubt that the machines are "rigged". I think that

you are

···

--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Pearson" <a-p@> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> just experiencing the normal fluctuations of the game. Replies
> appreciated.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

#8

Had a good day on $1 machine this week at Niagara. Top floor, machine
ID D3403. Had a quad near start and machine steady until I had a pair
of 10s or sacrifice for a Royal attempt. Now this had never worked for
me before but Bob Dancer strategy says to kill the high pair and go for
Royal. I did and got it! I couldn't believe my eyes 'cause I hadn't
had a Royal since October. Phew. Anyways for me the machines there
are just as good/bad as anywhere else...

#9

Nice hit, congratulations. The strategy chart I use says to drop the paying pair if the 3 card Royal does not contain an Ace.

Regards
A.P.

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "nicolasbello" <nbello@sympatico.ca>
To: <vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 8:25 AM
Subject: [vpFREE_Canada] Re: Casino Niagara PKM's-Says it's FP,Looks like FP,Is it really FP???

Had a good day on $1 machine this week at Niagara. Top floor, machine
ID D3403. Had a quad near start and machine steady until I had a pair
of 10s or sacrifice for a Royal attempt. Now this had never worked for
me before but Bob Dancer strategy says to kill the high pair and go for
Royal. I did and got it! I couldn't believe my eyes 'cause I hadn't
had a Royal since October. Phew. Anyways for me the machines there
are just as good/bad as anywhere else...