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Casino loses money on vp

Thanks, Bill!

My information agrees with what you said below. The remaining cards were set
to continue "shuffling" because there was concern that those "in the know"
might be able to predict the draw based on the deal.

Brian

···

==================================

In a message dated 10/28/2007 12:38:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
vphobby2@cox.net writes:

I'll answer this for you. First, by continuously shuffling the rest
of the deck you ensure a random deal. If the RNG could actually
randomize the deck you would be right but in order to mimic a live
game you must not be able to predict the next card based on cards
already seen. If you had the RNG program you would be able to predict
the draw based on the dealt hand (in fact it was done in the olden days).

For a complete description see my post from last week in response to
Dancer. However, the short answer is that when the draw button is
pressed between 0 and 5 cards are selected to fill the draw. This is
not only true for IGT but for Bally, WMS and, probably, all other
manufacturers as well.

If you need more information on the regs, call Gaming. They are
always glad to explain. (seriously)

Bill

At 11:30 AM 10/28/2007, you wrote:

Hey Brian

The way I remember it was; the deal issued 5 card draw and 10 cards
ined up like cattle in a chute. If you drew one then the first in
the chute line replaced, 2 cards discarded then first 2 replaced in
order etc. I don't know how it really worked but that's what I
seem to remember. Of course we might not want to discuss the old
old way when some games had the draw hiding under the discards.

Anyway, how did the deal change 5 years ago and I wonder what was
wrong with the old way.

An after thought, the electronic deal is to mimic a real live card
deck deal. I kinda think to continue the shuffle after the first
five cards dealt is really contrary to what I thought the regs call
for. In live poker after the shuffle stops it's stopped till the
whole game is dealt. However, if IGT does it.... What regs?? I
guess, what does it really matter anyway? Just wondered.

Cheers...jeep
.
.
.-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, bjaygold@... wrote:
>
>
> It's been at least five years since IGT changed their machines so
the
> remaining 47 cards continue "shuffling" until you hit DRAW. Hold
different cards,
> get different cards. Therefore, you cannot know what you would
have ended up
> with if you had held the pair of fours.
>
> Brian
>
> ==========================================
>
> In a message dated 10/21/2007 7:34:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> whitejeeps@... writes:
>
>
> Just this afternoon while playing 10 play DDB at 50 cent level I
> played 2roy and watched a pair of 4s sail away as I pushed the
draw
> button. I paused to inspect the drawn cards. I would have only got
a
> 3kd on one of the 10 hands.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

IGT reshuffles the discards also.
  After attending Bob Dancers class at Greektown casino, I went to an IGT machine and agonized over a four to a Royal with a matching suit 4 and discarded the 4 and "IT" came back for a flush.
  I guite in disgust.
  Nick

bjaygold@aol.com wrote:
          
Thanks, Bill!

My information agrees with what you said below. The remaining cards were set
to continue "shuffling" because there was concern that those "in the know"
might be able to predict the draw based on the deal.

Brian

···

==================================

In a message dated 10/28/2007 12:38:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
vphobby2@cox.net writes:

I'll answer this for you. First, by continuously shuffling the rest
of the deck you ensure a random deal. If the RNG could actually
randomize the deck you would be right but in order to mimic a live
game you must not be able to predict the next card based on cards
already seen. If you had the RNG program you would be able to predict
the draw based on the dealt hand (in fact it was done in the olden days).

For a complete description see my post from last week in response to
Dancer. However, the short answer is that when the draw button is
pressed between 0 and 5 cards are selected to fill the draw. This is
not only true for IGT but for Bally, WMS and, probably, all other
manufacturers as well.

If you need more information on the regs, call Gaming. They are
always glad to explain. (seriously)

Bill

At 11:30 AM 10/28/2007, you wrote:

Hey Brian

The way I remember it was; the deal issued 5 card draw and 10 cards
ined up like cattle in a chute. If you drew one then the first in
the chute line replaced, 2 cards discarded then first 2 replaced in
order etc. I don't know how it really worked but that's what I
seem to remember. Of course we might not want to discuss the old
old way when some games had the draw hiding under the discards.

Anyway, how did the deal change 5 years ago and I wonder what was
wrong with the old way.

An after thought, the electronic deal is to mimic a real live card
deck deal. I kinda think to continue the shuffle after the first
five cards dealt is really contrary to what I thought the regs call
for. In live poker after the shuffle stops it's stopped till the
whole game is dealt. However, if IGT does it.... What regs?? I
guess, what does it really matter anyway? Just wondered.

Cheers...jeep
.
.
.-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, bjaygold@... wrote:
>
>
> It's been at least five years since IGT changed their machines so
the
> remaining 47 cards continue "shuffling" until you hit DRAW. Hold
different cards,
> get different cards. Therefore, you cannot know what you would
have ended up
> with if you had held the pair of fours.
>
> Brian
>
> ==========================================
>
> In a message dated 10/21/2007 7:34:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> whitejeeps@... writes:
>
>
> Just this afternoon while playing 10 play DDB at 50 cent level I
> played 2roy and watched a pair of 4s sail away as I pushed the
draw
> button. I paused to inspect the drawn cards. I would have only got
a
> 3kd on one of the 10 hands.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

IGT reshuffles the discards also.
  After attending Bob Dancers class at Greektown casino, I went to an

IGT machine and agonized over a four to a Royal with a matching suit 4
and discarded the 4 and "IT" came back for a flush.

  I guite in disgust.
  Nick

Really?

If this did happen, then it was a machine malfunction and you should
have called over a slot person to get the hand history and the machine
checked. You would have gotten your bet back.

Dealing seconds is definitely a no-no.

Bill

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Hapycro1929 <hapycro1929@...> wrote:

Here's a question. I don't know any details about this problem. I
would guess before major changes were made by IGT there was lots of
folks who realized something was happening. I'd bet IGT denied it was
possible right to the end. Even now your info says "there was
concern" predictions were possible. Deny deny deny!! When something
is discovered, sometime there is a long run possible untill the
problem is corrected. Ya can't be a hog. Gotta keep it under your hat.

I remember a major bill validator company had validators that could be
cheated by attaching fishing line to bill. Insert bill and let game
credit up and pull the bill back out. It's not validators used on
slots, most take a double path through the reading mechanism. It's
probably impossible to pull bill back out. Those reading this, DON"T
TRY ANYTHING! YOU COULD GO TO JAIL! In the case of the bad
validators, crooks could empty a change or cigarette machine quickly.
(cigaretts are just like money) The validator company refused to agree
there was a problem with their acceptor. Finally one guy took an
expert at "stringing" validators to a trade show. The validator was
cheated in front of the company reps; he cheated their latest and
greatest.

Did the company admit to inferior product and refund $$ or repair
validators? Not on your life. The products work as designed when used
in a "lawful manner".

Just thought I'd throw that story in....Jeep
.
.

Thanks, Bill!

My information agrees with what you said below. The remaining cards

were set

to continue "shuffling" because there was concern that those "in

the know"

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, bjaygold@... wrote:

might be able to predict the draw based on the deal.

Brian

==================================

In a message dated 10/28/2007 12:38:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
vphobby2@... writes: