Casino loses money on vp

[bjaygold]

It's been at least five years since IGT changed their machines so the
remaining 47 cards continue "shuffling" until you hit DRAW. Hold different cards,
get different cards. Therefore, you cannot know what you would have ended up
with if you had held the pair of fours.

Brian

···

==========================================

In a message dated 10/21/2007 7:34:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
whitejeeps@yahoo.com writes:

Just this afternoon while playing 10 play DDB at 50 cent level I
played 2roy and watched a pair of 4s sail away as I pushed the draw
button. I paused to inspect the drawn cards. I would have only got a
3kd on one of the 10 hands.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jean]

<<It's been at least five years since IGT changed their machines so the
remaining 47 cards continue "shuffling" until you hit DRAW. Hold different cards,
get different cards.>>

Knowing this fact will save you lots of mental anguish that is the result of playing the "Only If" game!

···

________________
Jean $�ott
The new " FRUGAL VIDEO POKER
SCOUTING GUIDE" and other frugal
products are available at my Web site,
http://queenofcomps.com/.

[Jason_Pawloski]

It does save the "if only if" anguish, but now I wonder when holding say, a
low pair, if it's even possible for me to hit quads. Ah, the mysteries of
the universe.

···

On 10/22/07, Jean Scott <queenofcomps@cox.net> wrote:

  <<It's been at least five years since IGT changed their machines so the
remaining 47 cards continue "shuffling" until you hit DRAW. Hold different

cards,
get different cards.>>

Knowing this fact will save you lots of mental anguish that is the result
of
playing the "Only If" game!
________________
Jean $¢ott
The new " FRUGAL VIDEO POKER
SCOUTING GUIDE" and other frugal
products are available at my Web site,
http://queenofcomps.com/.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[whitejeeps]

Hey Brian

The way I remember it was; the deal issued 5 card draw and 10 cards
ined up like cattle in a chute. If you drew one then the first in
the chute line replaced, 2 cards discarded then first 2 replaced in
order etc. I don't know how it really worked but that's what I
seem to remember. Of course we might not want to discuss the old
old way when some games had the draw hiding under the discards.

Anyway, how did the deal change 5 years ago and I wonder what was
wrong with the old way.

An after thought, the electronic deal is to mimic a real live card
deck deal. I kinda think to continue the shuffle after the first
five cards dealt is really contrary to what I thought the regs call
for. In live poker after the shuffle stops it's stopped till the
whole game is dealt. However, if IGT does it.... What regs?? I
guess, what does it really matter anyway? Just wondered.

Cheers...jeep
.
.

It's been at least five years since IGT changed their machines so

the

remaining 47 cards continue "shuffling" until you hit DRAW. Hold

different cards,

get different cards. Therefore, you cannot know what you would

have ended up

with if you had held the pair of fours.

Brian

==========================================

In a message dated 10/21/2007 7:34:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
whitejeeps@... writes:

Just this afternoon while playing 10 play DDB at 50 cent level I
played 2roy and watched a pair of 4s sail away as I pushed the

draw

button. I paused to inspect the drawn cards. I would have only got

a

3kd on one of the 10 hands.

************************************** See what's new at

http://www.aol.com

···

.-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, bjaygold@... wrote:

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Bill_Coleman1]

I'll answer this for you. First, by continuously shuffling the rest of the deck you ensure a random deal. If the RNG could actually randomize the deck you would be right but in order to mimic a live game you must not be able to predict the next card based on cards already seen. If you had the RNG program you would be able to predict the draw based on the dealt hand (in fact it was done in the olden days).

For a complete description see my post from last week in response to Dancer. However, the short answer is that when the draw button is pressed between 0 and 5 cards are selected to fill the draw. This is not only true for IGT but for Bally, WMS and, probably, all other manufacturers as well.

If you need more information on the regs, call Gaming. They are always glad to explain. (seriously)

Bill

···

At 11:30 AM 10/28/2007, you wrote:

Hey Brian

The way I remember it was; the deal issued 5 card draw and 10 cards
ined up like cattle in a chute. If you drew one then the first in
the chute line replaced, 2 cards discarded then first 2 replaced in
order etc. I don't know how it really worked but that's what I
seem to remember. Of course we might not want to discuss the old
old way when some games had the draw hiding under the discards.

Anyway, how did the deal change 5 years ago and I wonder what was
wrong with the old way.

An after thought, the electronic deal is to mimic a real live card
deck deal. I kinda think to continue the shuffle after the first
five cards dealt is really contrary to what I thought the regs call
for. In live poker after the shuffle stops it's stopped till the
whole game is dealt. However, if IGT does it.... What regs?? I
guess, what does it really matter anyway? Just wondered.

Cheers...jeep
.
.-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, bjaygold@... wrote:
>
> It's been at least five years since IGT changed their machines so
the
> remaining 47 cards continue "shuffling" until you hit DRAW. Hold
different cards,
> get different cards. Therefore, you cannot know what you would
have ended up
> with if you had held the pair of fours.
>
> Brian
>
> ==========================================
>
> In a message dated 10/21/2007 7:34:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> whitejeeps@... writes:
>
> Just this afternoon while playing 10 play DDB at 50 cent level I
> played 2roy and watched a pair of 4s sail away as I pushed the
draw
> button. I paused to inspect the drawn cards. I would have only got
a
> 3kd on one of the 10 hands.
>
> ************************************** See what's new at
http://www.aol.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

[whitejeeps]

I'll answer this for you. First, by continuously shuffling the

rest

of the deck you ensure a random deal. If the RNG could actually
randomize the deck you would be right but in order to mimic a live
game you must not be able to predict the next card based on cards
already seen. If you had the RNG program you would be able to

predict

the draw based on the dealt hand (in fact it was done in the olden

days).

I would guess your going back to the really old days, not the recent
game change of 5 years ago. An exception might be the straight draw
many times returning same value card in different suit. Not reallly
an advantage gained from info. The "amusement only" games were
riddled with glitches that customer could exploit. One cherry game
had it built into the program to automatically give a win if seven
plays were made without a hit. So the player would play one line
till he got a 7 losing streak. Then he would max out the coins on
all 8 lines; a sometime good hit always came on the 8th play. The
Sircoma vp game would reset each time plug was pulled if battery was
dead on game board. When game started fresh first hand was always
same and so was the draw cards. In my neck of the woods there was
even a printed sheet to win on game if you found one with dead
battery. It wouldn't surprise if the Vegas games didn't have some
glitches also. (I posted about this before)

For a complete description see my post from last week in response

to

Dancer.

However, the short answer is that when the draw button is

pressed between 0 and 5 cards are selected to fill the draw. If

you need more information on the regs, call Gaming. They are

always glad to explain. (seriously)

I did read the post to Dancer. I just wanted to try and nail down
why the last big version change came for IGT. I would think changing
the way cards are shuffled would be considered a change. Seems to be
5 years. Along with any change comes, sometime, a subtle or even not
so subtle change to the way the game plays. To me and a very very
small group of folks on this site the machines don't play the same
as they did back in the day. I think there might be at least one
more person. Most here will chalk it up to how vivid my imagination
must be. I wonder if folks would consider the fact that IGT changed
the way the program works to be an indication of imagination on IGTs
part. It seems to be about 5 years since I developed a dislike for
the way the new games play. If I had time I would post on the
difference in play. By the way, I believe the games are random and
were random. I don't think they cheat. (I can't vouch for
the "amusement only" games down at the local tavern back east.)

I have an old gaming hand book about 200 pages long. I guess the
regs haven't changed much in last 20 years. Your right, gaming
control will always answer questions or at least point you in the
right direction for answers.

Cheers...Jeep

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

[Bill_Coleman1]

Without going into lots of details it is certain that all Game Kings deal 5 cards then keep shuffling. That actually puts the date back more like 7 years or so.

When the machines dealt 10 cards you could (and I think, did) have printouts where you could narrow the next cards dealt down to just a few possibilities based on the RNG program. That permits cheating.

Bill

···

At 03:09 PM 10/28/2007, you wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:
>
> I'll answer this for you. First, by continuously shuffling the
rest
> of the deck you ensure a random deal. If the RNG could actually
> randomize the deck you would be right but in order to mimic a live
> game you must not be able to predict the next card based on cards
> already seen. If you had the RNG program you would be able to
predict
> the draw based on the dealt hand (in fact it was done in the olden
days).

I would guess your going back to the really old days, not the recent
game change of 5 years ago. An exception might be the straight draw
many times returning same value card in different suit. Not reallly
an advantage gained from info. The "amusement only" games were
riddled with glitches that customer could exploit. One cherry game
had it built into the program to automatically give a win if seven
plays were made without a hit. So the player would play one line
till he got a 7 losing streak. Then he would max out the coins on
all 8 lines; a sometime good hit always came on the 8th play. The
Sircoma vp game would reset each time plug was pulled if battery was
dead on game board. When game started fresh first hand was always
same and so was the draw cards. In my neck of the woods there was
even a printed sheet to win on game if you found one with dead
battery. It wouldn't surprise if the Vegas games didn't have some
glitches also. (I posted about this before)

> For a complete description see my post from last week in response
to
> Dancer.
However, the short answer is that when the draw button is
> pressed between 0 and 5 cards are selected to fill the draw. If
you need more information on the regs, call Gaming. They are
> always glad to explain. (seriously)

I did read the post to Dancer. I just wanted to try and nail down
why the last big version change came for IGT. I would think changing
the way cards are shuffled would be considered a change. Seems to be
5 years. Along with any change comes, sometime, a subtle or even not
so subtle change to the way the game plays. To me and a very very
small group of folks on this site the machines don't play the same
as they did back in the day. I think there might be at least one
more person. Most here will chalk it up to how vivid my imagination
must be. I wonder if folks would consider the fact that IGT changed
the way the program works to be an indication of imagination on IGTs
part. It seems to be about 5 years since I developed a dislike for
the way the new games play. If I had time I would post on the
difference in play. By the way, I believe the games are random and
were random. I don't think they cheat. (I can't vouch for
the "amusement only" games down at the local tavern back east.)

I have an old gaming hand book about 200 pages long. I guess the
regs haven't changed much in last 20 years. Your right, gaming
control will always answer questions or at least point you in the
right direction for answers.

Cheers...Jeep

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

[vp_player]

I'll answer this for you. First, by continuously shuffling the rest
of the deck you ensure a random deal. If the RNG could actually
randomize the deck

Do you really mean this?

I would think that any correctly coded psuedo RNG should be able to
easily shuffle and randomize a deck. One way would be to continuely
pick a card from a re-shuffled deck that is reduced by the previous
picks until you have a completely shuffled random deck. It appears
that this is what you are indicating the pRNG does now, it just stops
picking cards after 5 for the deal and after up to 5 for the draw.
If it continued to shuffle and pick cards until the entire deck was
gone, then why wouldn't this result in a completely shuffled random
deck, which could then be dealt as a live dealer would?

you would be right but in order to mimic a live
game you must not be able to predict the next card based on cards
already seen. If you had the RNG program you would be able to

predict

the draw based on the dealt hand (in fact it was done in the olden

days).

Could you explain this?

My understanding is that even assuming you had the exact code of the
pRNG, you would need to know when and how the pRNG was seeded.
Without that knowledge you wouldn't know where you were at in the
number string and wouldn't know what the next numbers are.

Bill

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

[whitejeeps]

It becomes more clear to me. The Game Kings I avoided. In fact, I
hated them and still do. Now what can you play? Game Kings? If you
want to play you buckle to the pressure. Stardust was my last
favorite place with the quarter and dollar progressives which were
often attractive. I was comfortable with with those games and some
of the other quarter and dollar games. I could spend hours at
corner seat on the bar with the dollar single and 3 play games.
They were multi games; no 100%+, however I don't think they were
Game Kings. There goes my imagination again. Maybe it was because
Dust was home base and suite with a joining room for company had a
lot to do with being comfortable. Maybe the every so often $1000
shopping spree for me and also a $1000 for my wife might have had a
lot to do with machines being attractive. There were other good
promos too; 2 of which were cash coupons $200 or more and free slot
tournaments. CB was about .4% if I remember right. It was nice to
visit a smaller hotel and actually know a few of the employees and
customers. Alas, they removed the progressives. Then they tore the
place down. I probably liked the machines because I liked the place.
Geeze, when you get a place you like they either blow it up or sell
it.

Today I prefer Sigma and Bally games. But, where do you find them?

Gee, I never heard about any print outs.

Cheers Jeep
.

Without going into lots of details it is certain that all Game

Kings

deal 5 cards then keep shuffling. That actually puts the date back
more like 7 years or so.

When the machines dealt 10 cards you could (and I think, did) have
printouts where you could narrow the next cards dealt down to just

a

···

.--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

few possibilities based on the RNG program. That permits cheating.

Bill