vpFREE2 Forums

Casino loses money on vp

#1

Hi all

Newspapers and magazines like Casino Player cause mass hysteria in
casino managers. They read about 100% play and they picture legions of
players taking $1000s from their property. Sure they know the actual
return, but do they take time to know what's going on? After all,
there are guys writing books that make millions playing vp. I'm sure
the suits in the corps don't want to lose a million to some vp writer
player. They order tighter pay tables and Joe vp gets skinned better.
But, Joe vp has read an article and has heard 9/6 is a good game. So,
the casino gives him 9/6....Double Bonus. Nice guys. I think the
overload of info has hurt players more than help.

Does casino lose on full pay games? We bandy words of 100.17% full pay
and casino losing money on games. Some folks here even think casino
removes the negative JOBs because casino is losing $$ on the game.
BULL! Most of these joints consider a casino win of less than 5% to be
losing money. (That's my opinion and some might not agree.) There are
a few exceptions; FPDW is one. Even that game is offered a few places
at a quarter. You can take it to bank; the cash box has a profit in it
for the casino even on FPDW.

The whole group gets caught up on full pay and many don't realize one
mistake an hour wipes out the full pay. The rec player plays fast and
one mistake an hour moves up to 4 or 5 and guess what; full pay is now
98% return. It would be an exceptional person who would play a 2 hour
shift not making one mistake. But, the casino has to put up with these
perfect playing promo chasing folks in order to get the regular
players to play or do they?

Casino player type mags and newspapers cause feelings of mass euphoria
for new players. The player reads an article and gets a copy of Win
Poker and sees that full pay game. He rushes to Vegas with a $1000 and
he expects to return 3 days later with $2000; "hey I'm playing 100%
games". So 16 hours of quarter play later the player either hits a
royal or probably came out a few hundred behind. Either way they don't
realize the actual return is about 10 bucks and some comps; if they
play 16 hrs perfect.

Lots of info might not be a good thing....Jeep

#2

Well stated!
Vet

···

--- whitejeeps <whitejeeps@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi all

Newspapers and magazines like Casino Player cause
mass hysteria in
casino managers. They read about 100% play and they
picture legions of
players taking $1000s from their property. Sure they
know the actual
return, but do they take time to know what's going
on? After all,
there are guys writing books that make millions
playing vp. I'm sure
the suits in the corps don't want to lose a million
to some vp writer
player. They order tighter pay tables and Joe vp
gets skinned better.
But, Joe vp has read an article and has heard 9/6 is
a good game. So,
the casino gives him 9/6....Double Bonus. Nice guys.
I think the
overload of info has hurt players more than help.

Does casino lose on full pay games? We bandy words
of 100.17% full pay
and casino losing money on games. Some folks here
even think casino
removes the negative JOBs because casino is losing
$$ on the game.
BULL! Most of these joints consider a casino win of
less than 5% to be
losing money. (That's my opinion and some might not
agree.) There are
a few exceptions; FPDW is one. Even that game is
offered a few places
at a quarter. You can take it to bank; the cash box
has a profit in it
for the casino even on FPDW.

The whole group gets caught up on full pay and many
don't realize one
mistake an hour wipes out the full pay. The rec
player plays fast and
one mistake an hour moves up to 4 or 5 and guess
what; full pay is now
98% return. It would be an exceptional person who
would play a 2 hour
shift not making one mistake. But, the casino has to
put up with these
perfect playing promo chasing folks in order to get
the regular
players to play or do they?

Casino player type mags and newspapers cause
feelings of mass euphoria
for new players. The player reads an article and
gets a copy of Win
Poker and sees that full pay game. He rushes to
Vegas with a $1000 and
he expects to return 3 days later with $2000; "hey
I'm playing 100%
games". So 16 hours of quarter play later the player
either hits a
royal or probably came out a few hundred behind.
Either way they don't
realize the actual return is about 10 bucks and some
comps; if they
play 16 hrs perfect.

Lots of info might not be a good thing....Jeep

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#3

1) More like Strictly Slots, CP's sister publication.

2) Having seen/experienced this myself, it's not that easy to learn to
play perfect. We're talking something really easy, like PickE'm or
Jacks, games which I make mistakes on because I've fallen asleep while
playing them. I've heard once upon a time that Dancer's pitch to
casinos was to get them to within .5% of perfect, so the casino would
have a 1% edge on the player, while the player would give a lot of
action. I'm sure Bob can (and will) confirm/deny/expound on this.

3) I'm sure IGT execs (of which Dancer is a consultant, remember?)
have slot ops execs well schooled on the risk/reward that setting
their paytables a certain way have. It then becomes simply a matter of
the casino's philosophy. Compare, say, a Barona (CA Tribal casino with
many 100% machines, but little else in the program)or a Peppermill,
with, say, Caesars (where the best game I found recently was a $1 9-5
Jacks Spin Poker) or Foxwoods, who are determined to let nobody beat
them, ever, no matter what the cost.

3a) The reality is, that even for the casino, you have to give action
to get action. Some people will be smarter than others, and that's
where the opportunity costs lie. To gain a better profit, you might
have to lose money or break even against certain players, until you
can identify them as being smarter than average. Even then, the suits
mess up that science as well.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "whitejeeps" <whitejeeps@...> wrote:

Hi all

Newspapers and magazines like Casino Player cause mass hysteria in
casino managers. They read about 100% play and they picture legions of
players taking $1000s from their property.

#4

I agree 100%!! The suits are not looking at I feel the whole picture ,how manny of us are really 100% perfect player ?I am good but not perfect and have made mistakes(you can tell if your are in a casino when you hear someone yelling oh sh_ _!!.My poor marketing knowledge said people attract people,people buy what other people buy,where do

Hi all

Newspapers and magazines like Casino Player cause mass hysteria in
casino managers. They read about 100% play and they picture legions of
players taking $1000s from their property.

1) More like Strictly Slots, CP's sister publication.

2) Having seen/experienced this myself, it's not that easy to learn to
play perfect. We're talking something really easy, like PickE'm or
Jacks, games which I make mistakes on because I've fallen asleep while
playing them. I've heard once upon a time that Dancer's pitch to
casinos was to get them to within .5% of perfect, so the casino would
have a 1% edge on the player, while the player would give a lot of
action. I'm sure Bob can (and will) confirm/deny/expound on this.

3) I'm sure IGT execs (of which Dancer is a consultant, remember?)
have slot ops execs well schooled on the risk/reward that setting
their paytables a certain way have. It then becomes simply a matter of
the casino's philosophy. Compare, say, a Barona (CA Tribal casino with
many 100% machines, but little else in the program)or a Peppermill,
with, say, Caesars (where the best game I found recently was a $1 9-5
Jacks Spin Poker) or Foxwoods, who are determined to let nobody beat
them, ever, no matter what the cost.

3a) The reality is, that even for the casino, you have to give action
to get action. Some people will be smarter than others, and that's
where the opportunity costs lie. To gain a better profit, you might
have to lose money or break even against certain players, until you
can identify them as being smarter than average. Even then, the suits
mess up that science as well.

···

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#5

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "paladingamingllc"
<paladingamingllc@...> wrote:
it's not that easy to learn to

play perfect. We're talking something really easy, like PickE'm or
Jacks, games which I make mistakes on because I've fallen asleep

while

playing them. I've heard once upon a time that Dancer's pitch to
casinos was to get them to within .5% of perfect, so the casino would
have a 1% edge on the player, while the player would give a lot of
action. I'm sure Bob can (and will) confirm/deny/expound on this.

....
...

Just this afternoon while playing 10 play DDB at 50 cent level I
played 2roy and watched a pair of 4s sail away as I pushed the draw
button. I paused to inspect the drawn cards. I would have only got a
3kd on one of the 10 hands. In any event, even though I actually came
out better making the mistake, I consider it a $15 or $20 mistake.
I'm not a pro. I play for fun. However, my dollars are just as
important to me as they are to the pro. I cashed out. 4 hours of play
was enough today. In fact, it was too much.

Sometime there are combinations of cards that my mind doesn't get the
true picture. I'll find it helpfull to play even JOB on Win Poker.
Although, I have been playing it for more than 20 yrs and I play
perfect...mostly. What happens to me is I'll see a combination of
cards wrong. This is very rare in JOB for me. I let these mistakes
stack up over the months; in the error log. Every so often I play the
error log. It surprises me to see that I might make the same mistake
again; while playing fast. Using the error log to play from is a
valuable tool for me to brush up on games I haven't played for a
while. It helps to retrain the eyes to see the right thing. The error
log is a custom msde practice program for the individual.

I think Dancer is wrong. I believe the house win on full pay machines
is closer to 2% - 3% after Dancer lessons.

Cheers...Jeep

#6

Let's try somewhere in the neighborhood of 1-1.5%, or in other words
the player giving up .5-1%.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "whitejeeps" <whitejeeps@...> wrote:

I think Dancer is wrong. I believe the house win on full pay machines
is closer to 2% - 3% after Dancer lessons.

#7

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "whitejeeps" <whitejeeps@...> wrote:

The whole group gets caught up on full pay and many don't realize

one

mistake an hour wipes out the full pay. The rec player plays fast and
one mistake an hour moves up to 4 or 5 and guess what; full pay is

now

98% return. It would be an exceptional person who would play a 2 hour
shift not making one mistake. But, the casino has to put up with

these

perfect playing promo chasing folks in order to get the regular
players to play or do they?

While I agree with most of what you stated ... One mistake an hour does
not wipe out fullpay and 4 or 5 mistakes and hour will not reduce FPDW
to 98%. In fact if the mistakes are small enough they might not even
reduce the payback by .1%. I get your point and I agree ... no reason
to overstate it.

Dick