vpFREE2 Forums

Cashing out "tickets won" - another lesson learned

#1

It happened in 2 casinos already and learned the lesson finally!
Kept on accumulating tickets from cashing out each time I hit a 4-of-
a-kind or SF or if Credits goes up to say $300 or more. When I went
to a Cashier to cash out my "tickets" which was over $2,000.00, the
cashier put down my name in some type of a list or form. I asked the
cashier what that was for and she told me that it's keeping track of
people cashing out more than $2,000.00.
The same exact thing happened at an Indian casino so after that
incident, I now split my tickets (not cash them out at the same time)
when cashing out ($800 or $1,000 now then the rest later).

Why don't they have a list to put your name if you lost $2,000.00 or
more?

#2

Did they say why they do this?

···

-----Original Message-----
  From: gilbert_616 [mailto:gilbert_…@…com]
  Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 6:10 PM
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [vpFREE] Cashing out "tickets won" - another lesson learned

  It happened in 2 casinos already and learned the lesson finally!
  Kept on accumulating tickets from cashing out each time I hit a 4-of-
  a-kind or SF or if Credits goes up to say $300 or more. When I went
  to a Cashier to cash out my "tickets" which was over $2,000.00, the
  cashier put down my name in some type of a list or form. I asked the
  cashier what that was for and she told me that it's keeping track of
  people cashing out more than $2,000.00.
  The same exact thing happened at an Indian casino so after that
  incident, I now split my tickets (not cash them out at the same time)
  when cashing out ($800 or $1,000 now then the rest later).

  Why don't they have a list to put your name if you lost $2,000.00 or
  more?

  vpFREE Links:

  http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#3

I had a experience like this one time. I carried a lot of $500 chips
around to play table games because Missouri has a $500 per two hour
buy in maximum. One day I was cashing out some lower value chips
and just dumped all the chips out on the cashier window, the cashier
got really big eyes and about had a fit. I realized that she
shouldnt have seen the big chips and quickly left. Later I went to
cash out only the smaller chips and saw the cashier (a different
one) look me up in a book and there I was with the chips from
earlier. No real problem, I just learned that lesson the hard way.

This could be due to the casinos being required by law to track
large transactions because of money laundering.

my understanding is that you can cash in up to $2500 typically
without a problem.

Did they say why they do this?

  It happened in 2 casinos already and learned the lesson finally!
  Kept on accumulating tickets from cashing out each time I hit a

4-of-

  a-kind or SF or if Credits goes up to say $300 or more. When I

went

  to a Cashier to cash out my "tickets" which was over $2,000.00,

the

  cashier put down my name in some type of a list or form. I

asked the

  cashier what that was for and she told me that it's keeping

track of

  people cashing out more than $2,000.00.
  The same exact thing happened at an Indian casino so after that
  incident, I now split my tickets (not cash them out at the same

time)

  when cashing out ($800 or $1,000 now then the rest later).

]

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Carlos Lebron" <calebron@s...> wrote:

#4

I didn't quite find out "why" they are doing this (at The Orleans).
When I told the Cashier, while she was in the process of writing down
my name, that I changed my mind and would like to just cash out half
of my tickets, she called one of the slot floor supervisors and he
told me that they been doing it for awhile (putting people's name on
a list who have won or cashing out tickets worth $2,000 or more at
one time). Hopefully, this has nothing to do with potentially adding
you in an "advantage players" list.

Did they say why they do this?
  From: gilbert_616 [mailto:gilbert_616@y…]
  Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 6:10 PM
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [vpFREE] Cashing out "tickets won" - another lesson

learned

  It happened in 2 casinos already and learned the lesson finally!
  Kept on accumulating tickets from cashing out each time I hit a 4-

of-

  a-kind or SF or if Credits goes up to say $300 or more. When I

went

  to a Cashier to cash out my "tickets" which was over $2,000.00,

the

  cashier put down my name in some type of a list or form. I asked

the

  cashier what that was for and she told me that it's keeping track

of

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Carlos Lebron" <calebron@s...> wrote:

  -----Original Message-----
  people cashing out more than $2,000.00.

#5

I wonder if that is why I have not received any offers from the Gold
Coast in the last 3 or 4 months, on my last trip was playing there $
DDB progressives and hit the ACES w/kicker for $2000

Come to think of it I haven't got any thing from the BC either,
except for the slot tourney invite, and I got a $ royal on the same
trip there.

It starting to look like if you win some they don't want you back, so
I guess it's time to change casinos

Jacob

I didn't quite find out "why" they are doing this (at The Orleans).
When I told the Cashier, while she was in the process of writing

down

my name, that I changed my mind and would like to just cash out

half

of my tickets, she called one of the slot floor supervisors and he
told me that they been doing it for awhile (putting people's name

on

a list who have won or cashing out tickets worth $2,000 or more at
one time). Hopefully, this has nothing to do with potentially

adding

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "gilbert_616" <gilbert_616@y...> wrote:

you in an "advantage players" list.

#6

I didn't quite find out "why" they are doing this (at The Orleans).
When I told the Cashier, while she was in the process of
writing down my name, that I changed my mind and would like
to just cash out half of my tickets, she called one of the
slot floor supervisors and he told me that they been doing it
for awhile (putting people's name on a list who have won or
cashing out tickets worth $2,000 or more at one time).
Hopefully, this has nothing to do with potentially adding you
in an "advantage players" list.

They are doing this because they have to fill out a report on anyone who has
an aggregate of $10,000 or more in cash transactions in one day. They are
not allowed to tell you they are doing it. I don't worry about them but some
people do. By the way, structuring your cash transactions to avoid the
$10,000 reporting limit is a felony. If you make many smaller transactions
they will file a "suspicious person report" on you which is probably worse
than the "cash transaction report" they were going to file.

#7

> I didn't quite find out "why" they are doing this (at The

Orleans).

> When I told the Cashier, while she was in the process of
> writing down my name, that I changed my mind and would like
> to just cash out half of my tickets, she called one of the
> slot floor supervisors and he told me that they been doing it
> for awhile (putting people's name on a list who have won or
> cashing out tickets worth $2,000 or more at one time).
> Hopefully, this has nothing to do with potentially adding you
> in an "advantage players" list.

They are doing this because they have to fill out a report on

anyone who has

an aggregate of $10,000 or more in cash transactions in one day.

They are

not allowed to tell you they are doing it. I don't worry about them

but some

people do. By the way, structuring your cash transactions to avoid

the

$10,000 reporting limit is a felony. If you make many smaller

transactions

they will file a "suspicious person report" on you which is

probably worse

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Brodie" <richard@b...> wrote:

than the "cash transaction report" they were going to file.

--------------------
Isn't there a big difference between $2,000 and $10,000 ???
Maybe I was cashing out $2,500 but, that's still way off the $10,000
and the cashier talked about the transaction over $2,000 or $2,500
but not $10,000.
Anyway, the work-around is pretty simple as the lesson has been
learned.

#8

I wouldn't make assumptions. I also stopped receiving
mailings from the local Ameristar here in KC in 2003.
When I asked about it at the promotions booth the
boothling looked up my name in the system and said
"The 'receive mailings' thingy isn't checked. Do you
want to get mailings?" I said yes, and she clicked
the mouse on something. A month later, I started
receiving mailings again.

Like Jean says, ask.

carlos

···

--- Jacob <jacob36@yahoo.com> wrote:

---------------------------------
I wonder if that is why I have not received any offers
from the Gold
Coast in the last 3 or 4 months, on my last trip was
playing there $
DDB progressives and hit the ACES w/kicker for $2000

Come to think of it I haven't got any thing from the
BC either,
except for the slot tourney invite, and I got a $
royal on the same
trip there.

It starting to look like if you win some they don't
want you back, so
I guess it's time to change casinos

Jacob

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "gilbert_616"
<gilbert_616@y...> wrote:

I didn't quite find out "why" they are doing this

(at The Orleans).

When I told the Cashier, while she was in the

process of writing
down

my name, that I changed my mind and would like to

just cash out
half

of my tickets, she called one of the slot floor

supervisors and he

told me that they been doing it for awhile (putting

people's name
on

a list who have won or cashing out tickets worth

$2,000 or more at

one time). Hopefully, this has nothing to do with

potentially
adding

you in an "advantage players" list.

vpFREE Links:

http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

   To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/

   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vpFREE-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of Service.

#9

We talk about this subject in the tax book. Used to be $10,000 was the magic number where the government wanted to know more about us. Now the Patriot Act says that any financial institution must report any "suspicious" transaction over $3000.

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
for VP software and strategy cards; "frugal" books;
and the NEW "Tax Help for the Frugal Gambler."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#10

FWIW, in the case of TITO logging by casinos it's unlikely that any
transactions would trigger Suspicious Activity Reporting. The nature
of TITO activity doesn't fall within the standard defined SAR
circumstances.

I strongly expect that the recording of ticket cashouts is to satisfy
the reporting of aggregate daily cash transactions by an individual of
$10,000+.

- H.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@f...> wrote:

We talk about this subject in the tax book. Used to be $10,000 was
the magic number where the government wanted to know more about us.
Now the Patriot Act says that any financial institution must report
any "suspicious" transaction over $3000.

#11

<<The nature
of TITO activity doesn't fall within the standard defined SAR
circumstances.>>

It could very easily - if you weren't playing with a card that could show that you had actually been playing a reasonable length of time. Bob Dancer once told the story that a cashier thought his activity "suspicious" when he cashed in lot of coins from $5 machine play and the cashier hadn't actually seen him play. Some casino employees may bend over backwards to cover their behinds in this area.

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
for VP software and strategy cards; "frugal" books;
and the NEW "Tax Help for the Frugal Gambler."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#12

Jean Scott replied to:

<<The nature of TITO activity doesn't fall within the standard defined
SAR circumstances.>>

It could very easily - if you weren't playing with a card that could
show that you had actually been playing a reasonable length of time.

In reconsideration, with TITO one could much more readily launder
bills than previously with tokens (no hopper fills, for example).
Someone cashing in a slew of tickets might easily fall under suspicion
of possibly running around to several machines, feeding bills and
cashing out, to "discretely" launder money.

- H.

#13

  Why don't they have a list to put your name if you lost $2,000.00 or more?

This has actually been standard procedure for years. Virtually all American casinos
would keep what's called a Multiple Transactions Log (or some similar name) of
people who either cash out or buy in for multiple thousands at a time. Different
casinos have different thresholds, but almost all are in the $2,000-to-$3,000 range.
($3,000 is the requirement by law, but casinos may elect to make the limit lower to
further cover their buns.) What they do is write down your name, player's club
number, SSN or the like. If your transactions total more than $10K in a given 24-hour
period, then they have to fill out a Currency Transaction Report with the Feds, in
accordance with Regulation 6a in Nevada and Title 31, the Bank Secrecy Act,
everywhere else. The Patriot Act further codifies these regulations.

Strictly speaking, the casinos are not even supposed to discuss the law if someone
inquires -- it may be the only law around that you can break by merely discussing its
existence or implications. (Stupid, huh?) But it's not uncommon for a casino exec to at
least mention the regulations to a player who may be approaching the daily $10K
limit. It's also illegal to "structure" multiple transactions in an effort to evade the letter
of the law, but you can still do it without setting off alarms if you are careful, and it's
pretty hard to prove structuring in court anyway unless you're blatant, stupid or both
-- such as cashing our $9,900 in chips for five straight days.

I think it is also required for casinos to post signs at the main cage informing players
about the $10K limit -- every casino I've played at has them.

This also applies to banks and other financial institutions, by the way. They also keep
logs of all transactions of $3,000 an up, but only when the total goes over $10K to
they send a CTR. And in doing a little research for this reply, I also found out that
financial institutions may apply for an exemption on behalf of an established
*business* customer who regularly makes $10,000+ transactions.

#14

Suspicious Transaction Reports (SARs) are also filed by financial
institutions to record any activity that the bank finds to be questionable
or suspicious. There is no threshold for SARs, and something as simple as a
question or comment by a customer can trigger a SAR. Big Brother is
definitely watching, especially when cash transactions are part of the
equation.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "realkyhick" <realkyhick@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 5:19 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Cashing out "tickets won" - another lesson learned

> Why don't they have a list to put your name if you lost $2,000.00 or

more?

This has actually been standard procedure for years. Virtually all

American casinos

would keep what's called a Multiple Transactions Log (or some similar

name) of

people who either cash out or buy in for multiple thousands at a time.

Different

casinos have different thresholds, but almost all are in the

$2,000-to-$3,000 range.

($3,000 is the requirement by law, but casinos may elect to make the limit

lower to

further cover their buns.) What they do is write down your name, player's

club

number, SSN or the like. If your transactions total more than $10K in a

given 24-hour

period, then they have to fill out a Currency Transaction Report with the

Feds, in

accordance with Regulation 6a in Nevada and Title 31, the Bank Secrecy

Act,

everywhere else. The Patriot Act further codifies these regulations.

Strictly speaking, the casinos are not even supposed to discuss the law if

someone

inquires -- it may be the only law around that you can break by merely

discussing its

existence or implications. (Stupid, huh?) But it's not uncommon for a

casino exec to at

least mention the regulations to a player who may be approaching the daily

$10K

limit. It's also illegal to "structure" multiple transactions in an effort

to evade the letter

of the law, but you can still do it without setting off alarms if you are

careful, and it's

pretty hard to prove structuring in court anyway unless you're blatant,

stupid or both

-- such as cashing our $9,900 in chips for five straight days.

I think it is also required for casinos to post signs at the main cage

informing players

about the $10K limit -- every casino I've played at has them.

This also applies to banks and other financial institutions, by the way.

They also keep

logs of all transactions of $3,000 an up, but only when the total goes

over $10K to

they send a CTR. And in doing a little research for this reply, I also

found out that

financial institutions may apply for an exemption on behalf of an

established

*business* customer who regularly makes $10,000+ transactions.

vpFREE Links:

http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#15

Conducting this TITO exercise in futility would beg the question, WHY? You
accomplish absolutely nothing by feeding Ben Frankins in a CASH FOR LIFE
slot machine, then cashing out the paper ticket at the cage. Money
laundering is often misunderstood in this manner. Money laundering boils
down to conducting any transaction with the proceeds of illegal activity.
If there are no illegal proceeds, there is no money laundering, unless you
mix some bills with WISK and set the cycle to gentle.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@verizon.net>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 3:29 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Cashing out "tickets won" - another lesson learned

Jean Scott replied to:
> <<The nature of TITO activity doesn't fall within the standard defined
> SAR circumstances.>>
>
> It could very easily - if you weren't playing with a card that could
> show that you had actually been playing a reasonable length of time.

In reconsideration, with TITO one could much more readily launder
bills than previously with tokens (no hopper fills, for example).
Someone cashing in a slew of tickets might easily fall under suspicion
of possibly running around to several machines, feeding bills and
cashing out, to "discretely" launder money.

- H.

vpFREE Links:

http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#16

Financial institutions have been required to report "suspicious"
transactions and to "know their customers" long before the Patriot Act was
passed. SARs (suspicious activity reports) have been generated by financial
institutions for many years to document suspicious transactions for amounts
much less than $3,000. For example, if you go to three different Western
Union outlets and wire amounts of $980, $990, $995 to the same recipient on
the same day, a SAR will generated. There is not now, nor has there ever
been a fixed amount associated with SARs. There is no magic number. ANY
suspicious activity is required to be documented on a SAR by the financial
institutions involved, including banks, check cashing stores, money
transmitters, casa de cambios and casinos. CTRs (Currency Transaction
Reports) and CMIR (Currency and Monetary Instrument Reports) are required
for amounts of $10,000 or more (including structured amounts equal to or in
excess of $10,000). That amount has not changed to $3,000. As a matter of
fact, the amount of $10,000 is more likely to rise to a higher level not
decrease, as more and more exceptions are being issued. The paper work has
become over whelming for financial institutions at the $10,000 level which
has not been changed since the reported requirements were instituted (over
20 years ago). I don't cover any of this in my book, but the information is
available from numerous public sources for free.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@frugalgambler.biz>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Cashing out "tickets won" - another lesson learned

We talk about this subject in the tax book. Used to be $10,000 was the
magic number where the government wanted to know more about us. Now the
Patriot Act says that any financial institution must report any "suspicious"
transaction over $3000.
________________________________________
Jean $�ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
for VP software and strategy cards; "frugal" books;
and the NEW "Tax Help for the Frugal Gambler."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

vpFREE Links:

http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#17

Rasti$ P. Rulz wrote:

snip

... Money laundering boils
down to conducting any transaction with the proceeds of illegal activity.
If there are no illegal proceeds, there is no money laundering, unless you
mix some bills with WISK and set the cycle to gentle.

... or if, for some very odd reason, you just happen to have a lot of large bills that are sequentially numbered and might cause a scene if discovered :wink:

Bill Velek

#18

Rasti$ P. Rulz wrote:

Conducting this TITO exercise in futility would beg the question,
WHY? You accomplish absolutely nothing by feeding Ben Frankins in a
CASH FOR LIFE slot machine, then cashing out the paper ticket at the
cage.

My reference to "money laundering" here was a reference to someone who
has illicitly received cash for which there's a record of the serial
numbers. TITO is a potential a means by which to exchange the bills
for untracked currency without leaving a trail from original bills.

A more appropriate term than "laundering" might apply ... the standard
use of laundering refers to an attempt to convert illicit money into
legit income (at least in part) that can be spent without the source
being questioned. -- e.g., "godfather" pizza :wink:

- H.