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Can't deduct winnings against losses, IS it true??

You might want to look at IRS Notice 2015-21 – Proposed Safe Harbor Method for Determining a Wagering Gain or Loss from Slot Machine Play. This document defines a session of play as play during a calendar day on a particular type of game at the same gaming establishment. I don’t believe that a hand pay (that usually requires removal of the player’s card from the machine) triggers the end of a “session”. But that is just my opinion.

In a message dated 4/17/2019 10:54:17 AM Central Standard Time, vpF…@…com writes:

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btw, not to minimize your point about the benefit of session reporting, I’ll note that my interpretation of the session rules are such that any transaction that results in the redemption of credits for cash constitutes a session break. As such, being issued a w2-g with cash payment will require accounting for a session at that point, reducing the opportunity for offsetting “session” losses later in the day. (I haven’t seen this “take” validated elsewhere, but I find it consistent with the logic of session reporting. You’re welcome to take it with less than a grain of salt :wink:

I’m embarrassed to say that I wasn’t familiar with 2015-21 and that my comments reflected an interpretation under the earlier decided Schollenberg case.

I agree with your interpretation of 2015-21 and appreciate the enlightenment :slight_smile:

I’ll note that a brief review didn’t see evidence of proposal 2015–21 being formerly adopted yet. If not, then if a return is challenged there’s no guarantee that the examiner will accept the described tax treatment of winnings/losses. But you’re certainly on better legs than simply winging it.

I’d be interested in seeing additional discussion re 2015-21, particularly when it comes to defining the hours of a “casino day”. Personally, I’d be inclined to let the casino accounting day drive this, since that’s what drives my play timing. However, there’s some discussion of midnight being a fixed break.

Since the guidance is restricted to machine play that is computer tracked, defining a gambling day as being the casino accounting day bears a certain amount of consistency.

—In vpF…@…com, <walterhnri@…> wrote :

You might want to look at IRS Notice 2015-21 – Proposed Safe Harbor Method for Determining a Wagering Gain or Loss from Slot Machine Play. This document defines a session of play as play during a calendar day on a particular type of game at the same gaming establishment. I don’t believe that a hand pay (that usually requires removal of the player’s card from the machine) triggers the end of a “session”. But that is just my opinion.

In a message dated 4/17/2019 10:54:17 AM Central Standard Time, vpF…@…com writes:

···

btw, not to minimize your point about the benefit of session reporting, I’ll note that my interpretation of the session rules are such that any transaction that results in the redemption of credits for cash constitutes a session break. As such, being issued a w2-g with cash payment will require accounting for a session at that point, reducing the opportunity for offsetting “session” losses later in the day. (I haven’t seen this “take” validated elsewhere, but I find it consistent with the logic of session reporting. You’re welcome to take it with less than a grain of salt :wink:

The final rule clarified what a gaming day can be:

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2016/12/30/2016-31575/information-returns-winnings-from-bingo-keno-and-slot-machines

Very helpful … clarifies that a gaming day may either be defined as a standard calendar day, or as a 24-hour time period consistent with the accounting period of the gaming establishment.

Note, however, that this “rule” is narrowly focused to address casino reporting of player payouts to the IRS. It doesn’t address the method by which players should account for their play when filing. (As of the date of this rule issuance, Notice 2015-21 still stood as applicable guidance for tax reporting for players.)

The document explains that there was consideration given to making this rule consistent with Notice 2015-21, to facilitate reporting by players under the proposed “safe harbor” rules within that Notice. However, concerns surfaced in comments on this Rule and as a consequence “final regulations do not adopt the proposed rules for electronically tracked slot machine play” (i.e. Notice 2015-21)

This should be taken to mean that there are inconsistencies in the reporting by mandated for casinos under this Rule and the guidelines to players contained in the Notice 2015-21 proposals. For this reason, I’ll maintain that there is some audit interpretation risk in filing according to the proposed guidelines in Notice 2015-21 (i.e., until adopted, the guidelines don’t serve as a “safe harbor” and are subject to potential challenge during an audit).

Note, again, I’m unable to find anything suggesting that a rule adopting the provisions of Notice 2015-21 has been approved.

(disclaimer: I’m a professional corporate financial analyst, with an extensive accounting background … not a certified tax or accounting professional. All remarks should be taken in that light.)

—In vpF…@…com, <kentq@…> wrote :

The final rule clarified what a gaming day can be:

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2016/12/30/2016-31575/information-returns-winnings-from-bingo-keno-and-slot-machines

I have refrained from entering this discussion earlier since I might be accused of using this forum for commercial gain. (I could make more money working at McDonalds :slight_smile: ) However, although there has been some very good information given, there has also been some very bad advice. And even some of the good information needed more details. Short answers on tax issues are rarely helpful - there are so many exceptions and so much depends on varying personal circumstances.

So - I would like to suggest that if you want a complete discussion of these tax subjects, you can download the eBook, at a very frugal price, *Tax Help for Gamblers. * I brought on board for this brand-new 4th edition Russell Fox, an EA who has specialized in tax preparation for gamblers for almost 20 years. He knows all the details of the new tax rules, and together we have included all the up-to-date regulations and court cases. We spent many many pages discussing the biggest and most complex problem facing gamblers, the issue of how to report gambling wins and losses on a tax return.

It seems many gamblers are totally confused by varying opinions, even given by tax professionals. Sad to say, some of them may be good in other tax areas. but have no personal experience with gambling and/or have done no or few returns for gamblers and haven’t kept up with the changes in this area. So many of them have bought this book (or a gambling client gave it to them), because Russell is a respected expert in this field.

And one last caution: There are many tax questions that have no one-fits-all answer. That is why in the book we often have to discuss a range of options - and then leave it to the taxpayer (+ his tax professional, if he is using one) to decide which options fit his individual circumstances.

Just trying to be helpful,

Jean Scott

Your (Jean Scott’s) post on the 19th served as a reality check for me; I had contributed a couple of “shoot from the hip” posts to this thread by which, in hindsight, I’m more than a little embarrassed. (I hope I have a track record that suggests I more typically post from solid fact rather than “informed” opinion …)

So, yeah, I immediately set aside the tightwad within me and shelled out for the updated “Tax Help For Gamblers” (4th Ed). I lapped up the first ed. when it was published, but have had a “been there, done that” attitude re the updates as they’ve been subsequently issued.

The book arrived this morning and the topic discussion contained within is, again, a brilliant and satisfying read.

Now, I appreciate that the book contents are intended to serve as general guidance where it comes to tax reporting of gambling activity, and that readers are responsible for their own interpretation (or that of their tax advisor) when applying that guidance. That said, in my sampling of the book I found a couple of topics/issues that I yearn to explore to a greater length.

Jean, would you be willing to open a thread here for that purpose (fielding questions that you’re comfortable with, and perhaps soliciting Marissa’s or Russell’s input to whatever extent is feasible)?

The intent wouldn’t be to seek out pat answers, but instead, for example, provide opportunity for added context that might help clarify some discussion points in the book.

(And, as an aside, I hope no one would fault any potential “promotional” benefit that might arise as a consequence of such a thread. Jean regularly gives (and would give) more added value to group members here through her contributions than she’s ever likely to glean for herself in return.

vpFREE mod take on this reigns supreme, of course … deservedly. But, I would hope a similar discussion thread would be appropriate for any gambling resource of value to the group members.)

—In vpF…@…com, <queenofcomps@…> wrote :

I have refrained from entering this discussion earlier since I might be accused of using this forum for commercial gain. (I could make more money working at McDonalds :slight_smile: ) However, although there has been some very good information given, there has also been some very bad advice. And even some of the good information needed more details. Short answers on tax issues are rarely helpful - there are so many exceptions and so much depends on varying personal circumstances.

So - I would like to suggest that if you want a complete discussion of these tax subjects, you can download the eBook, at a very frugal price, *Tax Help for Gamblers. * I brought on board for this brand-new 4th edition Russell Fox, an EA who has specialized in tax preparation for gamblers for almost 20 years. He knows all the details of the new tax rules, and together we have included all the up-to-date regulations and court cases. We spent many many pages discussing the biggest and most complex problem facing gamblers, the issue of how to report gambling wins and losses on a tax return.

It seems many gamblers are totally confused by varying opinions, even given by tax professionals. Sad to say, some of them may be good in other tax areas. but have no personal experience with gambling and/or have done no or few returns for gamblers and haven’t kept up with the changes in this area. So many of them have bought this book (or a gambling client gave it to them), because Russell is a respected expert in this field.

And one last caution: There are many tax questions that have no one-fits-all answer. That is why in the book we often have to discuss a range of options - and then leave it to the taxpayer (+ his tax professional, if he is using one) to decide which options fit his individual circumstances.

Just trying to be helpful,

Jean Scott

Harry, that's a good suggestion.

vpFREE Moderator

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____________________________

From: harry.porter@verizon.net

Jean, would you be willing to open a thread here for that purpose
(fielding questions that you're comfortable with, and perhaps
soliciting Marissa's or Russell's input to whatever extent is
feasible)?

The intent wouldn't be to seek out pat answers, but instead, for
example, provide opportunity for added context that might help clarify
some discussion points in the book.

(And, as an aside, I hope no one would fault any potential
"promotional" benefit that might arise as a consequence of such a
thread. Jean regularly gives (and would give) more added value to
group members here through her contributions than she's ever likely to
glean for herself in return.

vpFREE mod take on this reigns supreme, of course ... deservedly.
But, I would hope a similar discussion thread would be appropriate for
any gambling resource of value to the group members.)

Thank you, Harry, for a positive review of “Tax Help for Gamblers.”

You brought out a needed point that perhaps I have not emphasized in the past - that I didn’t put out a new edition until there were major/important updates. The first edition was put out in 2007 so that means an average of every 3 years. (I didn’t realize it had been that long ago!!!)

Dealing with technical subjects like taxes is not my favorite subject to write about - stressful for a perfectionist who wants all facts totally accurate and the IRS is “fuzzy” on so many issues. Also I had planned to retire from writing books. But the major changes in the tax law for 2018 seemed to make a new majorly-updated tax book absolutely necessary. Since Marissa no longer wanted to work on this project, I was so happy to find Russell Fox, who agreed to jump on board to give the technical help I had to have. And he is good - I recommend him highly for any gambler who needs professional help with their taxes. He has been doing this for almost 20 years, keeping up on all the twists and turns of the laws and the courts cases.

I am hesitate to open a discussion about taxes here on this forum. First, it can get pretty long and involved. Simple questions usually require long answers. I don’t have unlimited time to spend on this - I do still play VP!!! :slight_smile: But more importantly I have to be careful not to get into legal areas - I am not a lawyer. And although it would be nice for Russ for enter into the conversation, he has a very busy practice and would not have the time for it. And he would be the first to say to many questions, “That depends on your individual circumstances of which I do not know the details.”

I doubt that I could clarify any portions in the book - that would probably run into mostly “it depends.” We tried to take many of the thorny issues and give a number of possible ways gamblers and/or professionals might cope or interpret. Remember, some issues are so nebulous that different IRS employees will give different opinions.

If someone wants to start a thread on “Tax Issues,” I will comment/answer/discuss when I can. I always read all posts. But I don’t want to be considered the “final-word expert.”

Jean Scott

···

On April 23, 2019 at 1:51 PM “harry.por…@…net [vpFREE]” <vpF…@…com> wrote:

Your (Jean Scott’s) post on the 19th served as a reality check for me; I had contributed a couple of “shoot from the hip” posts to this thread by which, in hindsight, I’m more than a little embarrassed. (I hope I have a track record that suggests I more typically post from solid fact rather than “informed” opinion …)

So, yeah, I immediately set aside the tightwad within me and shelled out for the updated “Tax Help For Gamblers” (4th Ed). I lapped up the first ed. when it was published, but have had a “been there, done that” attitude re the updates as they’ve been subsequently issued.

The book arrived this morning and the topic discussion contained within is, again, a brilliant and satisfying read.

Now, I appreciate that the book contents are intended to serve as general guidance where it comes to tax reporting of gamblin g activity, and that readers are responsible for their own interpretation (or that of their tax advisor) when applying that guidance. That said, in my sampling of the book I found a couple of topics/issues that I yearn to explore to a greater length.

Jean, would you be willing to open a thread here for that purpose (fielding questions that you’re comfortable with, and perhaps soliciting Marissa’s or Russell’s input to whatever extent is feasible)?

The intent wouldn’t be to seek out pat answers, but instead, for example, provide opportunity for added context that might help clarify some discussion points in the book.

(And, as an aside, I hope no one would fault any potential “promotional” benefit that might arise as a consequence of such a thread. Jean regularly gives (and would give) more added value to group members here through her contributions than she& #39;s ever likely to glean for herself in return.

vpFREE mod take on this reigns supreme, of course … deservedly. But, I would hope a similar discussion thread would be appropriate for any gambling resource of value to the group members.)

—In vpF…@…com, <queenofcomps@…> wrote :

I have refrained from entering this discussion earlier since I might be accused of using this forum for commercial gain. (I could make more money working at McDonalds :slight_smile: ) However, although there has been some very good information given, there has also been some very bad advice. And even some of the good information needed more details. Short answers on tax issues are rarely helpful - there are so many exceptions and so much depends on varying personal circumstances.

So - I would like to suggest that if you want a complete discussion of these tax subjects, you can download the eBook, at a very frugal price, *Tax Help for Gamblers. * I brought on board for this brand-new 4th edition Russell Fox, an EA who has specialized in tax preparation for gamblers for almost 20 years. He knows all the details of the new tax rules, and together we have included all the up-to-date regulations and court cases. We spent many many pages discussing the biggest and most complex problem facing gamblers, the issue of how to report gambling wins and losses on a tax return.

It seems many gamblers are totally confused by varying opinions, even giv en by tax professionals. Sad to say, some of them may be good in other tax areas. but have no personal experience with gambling and/or have done no or few returns for gamblers and haven’t kept up with the changes in this area. So many of them have bought this book (or a gambling client gave it to them), because Russell is a respected expert in this field.

And one last caution: There are many tax questions that have no one-fits-all answer. That is why in the book we often have to discuss a range of options - and then leave it to the taxpayer (+ his tax professional, if he is using one) to decide which options fit his individual circumstances.

Just trying to be helpful,

Jean Scott

Thanks for the folflow-up, Jean. I fully appreciate the considerations involved – it’s easy to envision that the suggested thread might easily take a turn where people ask for input on situations specific to themselves. It’s inappropriate to look to you, or anyone else in this group, for individual tax advice (even in areas where you’re fully qualified to comment).

I also recognize that such a thread might easily go “off the rails” through well-intentioned, yet half-informed, input from other group members (such as myself :wink: ).

Nonetheless, if your contributions are limited to posts that illuminate the background details and general considerations behind what’s presented in the book, I see much potential value. Plus, I’d hope that the discussion might highlight valuable content that might prompt players who can benefit to delve deeper.

Unless someone beats me to it, I’ll start a thread with the suggested title “Tax Issues” and pose a couple of generally-targeted questions that arose as I read select passages from “Tax Help”. (I’m gearing up for a couple of weeks “on the road”, after having broken from play the last 6 weeks to attend to personal matters, so it may be a day or two before I respond.)

—In vpF…@…com, <queenofcomps@…> wrote :

Thank you, Harry, for a positive review of “Tax Help for Gamblers.”

I am hesitate to open a discussion about taxes here on this forum. First, it can get pretty long and involved. Simple questions usually require long answers. I don’t have unlimited time to spend on this - I do still play VP!!! :slight_smile: But more importantly I have to be careful not to get into legal areas - I am not a lawyer. And although it would be nice for Russ for enter into the conversation, he has a very busy practice and would not have the time for it. And he would be the first to say to many questions, “That depends on your individual circumstances of which I do not know the details.”

I doubt that I could clarify any portions in the book - that would probably run into mostly “it depends.” We tried to take many of the thorny issues and give a number of possible ways gamblers and/or professionals might cope or interpret. Remember, some issues are so nebulous that different IRS employees will give different opinions.

If someone wants to start a thread on “Tax Issues,” I will comment/answer/discuss when I can. I always read all posts. But I don’t want to be considered the “final-word expert.”

Jean Scott

···