vpFREE2 Forums

Cannery Hates Video Poker Players

#1

"bobbartop" wrote in earlier thread:
Here's one more gripe/rhetorical question before I
close this post. Cannery! The one on Craig,
Cannery North. My question to them, ARE YOU HAPPY
NOW? What I want to know, Cannery, are you making
more money for your bottom line with your sucky
video poker at the bar since you downgraded the
previously very popular games you had before?

Yes, those 8/5 BP progressives at the Cannery bars were downgraded a few months ago. Then they downgraded most of the multiline 8/5 BP.

Now they have told some Dancer-educated senior citizens that they aren't allowed to play video poker there anymore.

These people haven't broken any of the slot club club rules nor have they been disruptive or tried to cheat the casino. The official reason given is that "You're too good of a player for us."

Sounds like the Cannery only wants customers who are dumb and/or losers.

#2

Do you mean they didn't even try the no-mailer route first? Is this Suncoast-deja-vu all over again? What are they THINKING?

Hey Cannery! Listen up! Here's some advice. Either put the 8-5 back at the bar, or if you really want some lower pay tables, put 7-5 Bonus, 9-6-5 Double Bonus, and 9-5 Double Double, and put a 1-1/2% meter on them! In fact, make separate jackpots for each game. Get those jackpots up to $2000, $2500, even $3000, and watch the players line up to play! And you STILL MAKE MONEY!

And when you get done with the bar, put some similar banks on the floor. Get rid of the 7-5 Double Double and other grind-em-up games like that. Give the players a good game! And welcome everyone! Don't start kicking people out, the word will get around, and players won't like it. BE PLAYER FRIENDLY! Like you used to be.

Keep the cheap plastic toys, and give us some good games! Players want a shot! Players want to have fun! Be competitive in the locals market! You're making a mistake like this. Don't become a grind joint. I'm tellin ya.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, savorvpx <savorvpx@...> wrote:

Now they have told some Dancer-educated senior citizens that they aren't allowed to play video poker there anymore.

These people haven't broken any of the slot club club rules nor have they been disruptive or tried to cheat the casino. The official reason given is that "You're too good of a player for us."

#3

And while we are ranting. An additional suggestion to any Cannery personnel who might see this.

You can put in all the high-return machines you want and profit from them, as long as you stick with games that have difficult strategies and rotate them every few months.

Dbl BoPo one month, and 2-Pair Jkr the next.

Sure some will be able to beat the games a little but most will try and fail. But at least this way you are giving people a chance, which is all they are asking for.

~FK

#4

Excellent suggestion, Frank.

By the way, I'm looking at my notes here. I checked the meter of a bank of 8-5 BP progressive there, put in $10, and it went up 1-cent. Woohoo. Man, that is really paranoid. What happened to this casino? Isn't it still the same ownership and management? It used to be quite player-friendly. And the jackpot on the game at the bar used to regularly go to $1400 on the quarter side, and often much higher.

And speaking of Cannery, what happened to the Eastside version? I must have missed the story, but not that long ago they were "Bob Dancer-certified" for loosest on the Boulder Strip and the casino was bending over backwards to attract players. I stopped there last week, and Bonus Poker, whoopteedoo! I know the place looks nice, but bring back Nevada Palace, I miss it. lol

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

And while we are ranting. An additional suggestion to any Cannery personnel who might see this.

You can put in all the high-return machines you want and profit from them, as long as you stick with games that have difficult strategies and rotate them every few months.

Dbl BoPo one month, and 2-Pair Jkr the next.

Sure some will be able to beat the games a little but most will try and fail. But at least this way you are giving people a chance, which is all they are asking for.

~FK

#5

Now they have told some Dancer-educated senior citizens that they aren't allowed to play video poker there anymore.

These people haven't broken any of the slot club club rules nor have they been disruptive or tried to cheat the casino. The official reason given is that "You're too good of a player for us."

bobbartop wrote:

Do you mean they didn't even try the no-mailer route first? Is this Suncoast-deja-vu all over again? What are they THINKING?

Hey Cannery! Listen up! Here's some advice. Either put the 8-5 back at the bar, or if you really want some lower pay tables, put 7-5 Bonus, 9-6-5 Double Bonus, and 9-5 Double Double, and put a 1-1/2% meter on them! In fact, make separate jackpots for each game. Get those jackpots up to $2000, $2500, even $3000, and watch the players line up to play! And you STILL MAKE MONEY!

And when you get done with the bar, put some similar banks on the floor. Get rid of the 7-5 Double Double and other grind-em-up games like that. Give the players a good game! And welcome everyone! Don't start kicking people out, the word will get around, and players won't like it. BE PLAYER FRIENDLY! Like you used to be.

Keep the cheap plastic toys, and give us some good games! Players want a shot! Players want to have fun! Be competitive in the locals market! You're making a mistake like this. Don't become a grind joint. I'm tellin ya.

I'd love to see some numbers that back up your theory that providing
professionals with plays will improve the Cannery's bottom line. I
think you're underestimating nonprofessionals' willingness to play, no
matter what the pay table.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, savorvpx <savorvpx@...> wrote:

#6

savorvpx wrote:

Sounds like the Cannery only wants customers who are dumb and/or losers.

If you were in a poker game, would you want professionals in the game
or dumb losers?

#7

I just got word that a friend got his card squashed at the El Dorado in Reno. I knew the guy thru the poker games. The thing is, this guy wouldn't know a video poker strategy if it bit him in the ass, much less the strategy for the game he was playing, Multi-Strike 9/6 Bonus Deluxe. Dude, just got into a good run, so they squashed him.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <007@...> wrote:

I'd love to see some numbers that back up your theory that providing
professionals with plays will improve the Cannery's bottom line. I
think you're underestimating nonprofessionals' willingness to play, no
matter what the pay table.

#8

That's kinda apples and oranges, kinda. I still think there is an optimal way to run a casino floor, one that includes smart players and still yields profit for the casino's bottom line. Don't ask me what that optimal plan is, because I'm just a layman, speaking with experience only as a player. I think I am objective, though.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <007@...> wrote:

If you were in a poker game, would you want professionals in the game
or dumb losers?

#9

I'd like to see some numbers too. I have zero experience from the casino's position. But as it stands, I think they're way too paranoid. I find it hard to believe that Cannery didn't make money at that bar when the jackpot was high and players were plentiful. I checked one of their 8-5 BP progressives in a bank the other day to see what the meter was. I ran through $10, it went up one cent. That's pathetic. At least the one in the non-smoking section went up 5 cents.

I still feel there's a happy medium, and a better way to do things. I am convinced they are being near-sighted. But it's their money, their casino, so good luck to them.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <007@...> wrote:

I'd love to see some numbers that back up your theory that providing
professionals with plays will improve the Cannery's bottom line. I
think you're underestimating nonprofessionals' willingness to play, no
matter what the pay table.

#10

The mistake they're making is killing the progressive meter when they aren't happy with the overall results. Instead they need to leave the meter alone (1% or more is a good progression) and take some out of the paytables, for example knocking 8-5 Bonus Poker down to 7-5 or 9-6 Double Double Bonus down to 8-6. That increases the rake but the high meter progression will still bring in the customers. Killing the meter progression pretty much kills the game, nobody is fooled by a supposedly progressive slot where the jackpot hardly moves at all.

Bottom line, if a casino offers 8-5 Bonus or 9-6 Double Double Bonus without progressive, they should also offer 7-5 Bonus or 8-6 Double Double Bonus with 1% progressive or 6-5 Bonus or 7-6 Double Double Bonus with 2% progressive. All of these are about the same hold for the casino, but the progressives will bring in more business.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <007@> wrote:
>
> I'd love to see some numbers that back up your theory that providing
> professionals with plays will improve the Cannery's bottom line. I
> think you're underestimating nonprofessionals' willingness to play, no
> matter what the pay table.
>

I'd like to see some numbers too. I have zero experience from the casino's position. But as it stands, I think they're way too paranoid. I find it hard to believe that Cannery didn't make money at that bar when the jackpot was high and players were plentiful. I checked one of their 8-5 BP progressives in a bank the other day to see what the meter was. I ran through $10, it went up one cent. That's pathetic. At least the one in the non-smoking section went up 5 cents.

I still feel there's a happy medium, and a better way to do things. I am convinced they are being near-sighted. But it's their money, their casino, so good luck to them.

#11

It's a trend at Nevada casinos, hit a taxable and they squash your card. Obviously that is not good for business. Gaming should go after them or at least help them by setting some basic guidelines of what's good and what's bad for business. Punishing winners is bad for business. No wonder Nevada is losing business to the other states.

Part of the problem is applying the table game model to slots. In tables games you have to watch individual players (and dealers), because one player could suck you dry. If an individual player is sucking a slot dry there's something wrong with the slot machine. You can't cheat a slot like you can a table game and since every hand is a full reshuffle you can't count or track the deck either. It is possible that a slot is set too loose, in which case you should thank the player for finding it for you and reset it tighter or fix whatever the problem is. Bottom line: you do have to protect table games from customer and employee cheating but slot machines are supposed to be foolproof, if you want more hold tighten the machine return. Don't sweat machine players, that's bad for business. The machine is always the problem, if it's too loose, tighten it or take it out!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <007@> wrote:
>
>
> I'd love to see some numbers that back up your theory that providing
> professionals with plays will improve the Cannery's bottom line. I
> think you're underestimating nonprofessionals' willingness to play, no
> matter what the pay table.
>
>
>
I just got word that a friend got his card squashed at the El Dorado in Reno. I knew the guy thru the poker games. The thing is, this guy wouldn't know a video poker strategy if it bit him in the ass, much less the strategy for the game he was playing, Multi-Strike 9/6 Bonus Deluxe. Dude, just got into a good run, so they squashed him.

#12

The casino should just sit back and rake the action and do whatever it takes to increase the action. Ladies only or Seniors only are examples of restricted events that seem to work, but I'm sure that as soon as Harrah's (or whatever their name is this week) starts restricting players from the WSOP, that'll be the end of that.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <007@...> wrote:

savorvpx wrote:

>Sounds like the Cannery only wants customers who are dumb and/or losers.

If you were in a poker game, would you want professionals in the game
or dumb losers?

#13

Actually, the numbers are easy. 8-5 Bonus Poker with a 0.8% meter? That's a 99.97% return if every player is a Dancer clone. So, in the worst case, the casino doesn't lose on that game, but they don't win much either. Of course not everyone's a Dancer clone, so as IGT will probably tell the casino, they stand to make about a percent or so on that game. Not enough for the casino? Then tighten the game, make it 7-5 Bonus Poker with a 0.8% meter. But 8-5 Bonus Poker with a 0.1% meter is stupid, that's not really a progressive at all, even a total gambling virgin will see through that ruse.

Also, as every cardroom knows, you can't just kick out the good players and expect the fish to jump right in. You need some good players to partially fill tables, then the fish will play. Fish won't play if no one else is playing. The fish don't really know what they're getting into, but that's the way things are. Fish like to school, and when they see some players they think that's a school without realizing that it could be a bunch of sharks, but that's the nature of fish, if the pool is empty or near empty they get suspicious thinking everyones been eaten already and they move on. Same rules apply to casinos.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <007@> wrote:
>
> I'd love to see some numbers that back up your theory that providing
> professionals with plays will improve the Cannery's bottom line. I
> think you're underestimating nonprofessionals' willingness to play, no
> matter what the pay table.
>

I'd like to see some numbers too. I have zero experience from the casino's position. But as it stands, I think they're way too paranoid. I find it hard to believe that Cannery didn't make money at that bar when the jackpot was high and players were plentiful. I checked one of their 8-5 BP progressives in a bank the other day to see what the meter was. I ran through $10, it went up one cent. That's pathetic. At least the one in the non-smoking section went up 5 cents.

I still feel there's a happy medium, and a better way to do things. I am convinced they are being near-sighted. But it's their money, their casino, so good luck to them.

#14

There's something you are all forgetting. As long as all the players on the bank aren't a single team playing a conservative strategy, fighting for the high progressive and playing for the high meters considerably increases the casino's rake. It's odd but what's good for the player is also good for the casino.

You could put in a 9/6 JoB game with .5% MR and still make money as long as the competition was adjusting their strategy "correctly".

This has to do with the dynamics of immediate expectancy vs long term profit.

~FK

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

Actually, the numbers are easy. 8-5 Bonus Poker with a 0.8% meter? That's a 99.97% return if every player is a Dancer clone. So, in the worst case, the casino doesn't lose on that game, but they don't win much either. Of course not everyone's a Dancer clone, so as IGT will probably tell the casino, they stand to make about a percent or so on that game. Not enough for the casino? Then tighten the game, make it 7-5 Bonus Poker with a 0.8% meter. But 8-5 Bonus Poker with a 0.1% meter is stupid, that's not really a progressive at all, even a total gambling virgin will see through that ruse.

#15

When players are forced to play against each other, the casino wins. And actually, you don't need to force players to play against each other, they seek out that experience. That's a business model.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

There's something you are all forgetting. As long as all the players on the bank aren't a single team playing a conservative strategy, fighting for the high progressive and playing for the high meters considerably increases the casino's rake. It's odd but what's good for the player is also good for the casino.

You could put in a 9/6 JoB game with .5% MR and still make money as long as the competition was adjusting their strategy "correctly".

This has to do with the dynamics of immediate expectancy vs long term profit.

~FK

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
>
> Actually, the numbers are easy. 8-5 Bonus Poker with a 0.8% meter? That's a 99.97% return if every player is a Dancer clone. So, in the worst case, the casino doesn't lose on that game, but they don't win much either. Of course not everyone's a Dancer clone, so as IGT will probably tell the casino, they stand to make about a percent or so on that game. Not enough for the casino? Then tighten the game, make it 7-5 Bonus Poker with a 0.8% meter. But 8-5 Bonus Poker with a 0.1% meter is stupid, that's not really a progressive at all, even a total gambling virgin will see through that ruse.

#16

Good I'm glad you agree.

So to all the casino personnel out there, take heed. More situations where players can compete against each other is good for you. A progressive with no progression is a waste of a fancy Jackpot display.

~FK

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote: When players are forced to play against each other, the casino wins. And actually, you don't need to force players to play against each other, they seek out that experience. That's a business model.

#17

You guys should do a radio show on how Vegas casinos can win back their business. I know it's challenging, but you already have a couple of good ideas:

Put in more progressives, with at least a 1% meter, and don't forget to take the meter amount out of the paytable so it's at least revenue neutral for the casino. And if you still don't like the hold, take some more out of the paytable, leave the progressive meter alone. The progressive meter is the hook that brings in business, the paytable is where you make your rake.

Run more promotions that involve player competition: max coin in, max royals, max taxables, and so on. Even something as simple as sweetening up (adding money to) a progressive pot to get it started, that's basically a competition to see who can get the first jackpot.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

Good I'm glad you agree.

So to all the casino personnel out there, take heed. More situations where players can compete against each other is good for you. A progressive with no progression is a waste of a fancy Jackpot display.

~FK

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote: When players are forced to play against each other, the casino wins. And actually, you don't need to force players to play against each other, they seek out that experience. That's a business model.

#18

Yea there are some even better ideas that could make it good for all parties concerned. For instance progressives that go up on on total play in the casino rather than just play on that individual bank.

This way no one has to pump the meter when it's low.

Backup meters to avoid total reset, etc...

~FK

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

You guys should do a radio show on how Vegas casinos can win back their business. I know it's challenging, but you already have a couple of good ideas:

Put in more progressives, with at least a 1% meter, and don't forget to take the meter amount out of the paytable so it's at least revenue neutral for the casino. And if you still don't like the hold, take some more out of the paytable, leave the progressive meter alone. The progressive meter is the hook that brings in business, the paytable is where you make your rake.

Run more promotions that involve player competition: max coin in, max royals, max taxables, and so on. Even something as simple as sweetening up (adding money to) a progressive pot to get it started, that's basically a competition to see who can get the first jackpot.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@> wrote:
>
> Good I'm glad you agree.
>
> So to all the casino personnel out there, take heed. More situations where players can compete against each other is good for you. A progressive with no progression is a waste of a fancy Jackpot display.
>
> ~FK
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote: When players are forced to play against each other, the casino wins. And actually, you don't need to force players to play against each other, they seek out that experience. That's a business model.
>

#19

The direct answer is that in a cash game you want at least one donkey. More are nice, but one will do. Right?

http://www.donkeytest.com/

Casinos call these "whales":

http://casinowhale.net/

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <007@...> wrote:

If you were in a poker game, would you want professionals in the game
or dumb losers?

#20

On my recent Vegas trip I did a whole bunch of scouting. Here are what I've seen and think should be very viable for all parties if they put a decent meter rise on it.

7-5 Bonus Poker
9-5 or 8-6 Jacks-or-Better
9-6-5 Double Bonus
9-5 Double Double
12-10 Deuces Wild and/or PNSU
8-6 Bonus Poker Deluxe (even 8-5)
13-4 Bonus Deuces Wild

And here are some ball-busters, they need to jetison these on the next space shuttle.

6-5 Bonus Poker YECH!!!
9-6-4 Double Bonus DOUBLE YECH!!!
8-5 Double Double
7-5 Bonus Poker Deluxe
7-5 Double Double should be a CRIME!
7-5 Jacks-or-Better
10-4-3 Bonus Deuces Wild
16-13-4 "Colorado" Deuces, there is a lot of this everywhere, SUX!

In this second group I saw a lot of relatively high meters and jackpots, but the games suck so bad it is just not viable. Especially that 9-6-4 Double Bonus. There is such a big difference between 9-6-4 and 9-6-5. First of all, big strategy differences. But the 9-6-5 works, and the 9-6-4 just sucks.

Anyway, even with decent pay tables, almost everywhere I went I saw the marquees over the progressive banks that said "$1015", "$1042", "$1102". Big deal! Why even advertise? Why even have a sign or a marquee if the jackpot is going to stay so low?

C'mon slots directors, get with it! Either that or find another job. Next time get a lemonade stand.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

The mistake they're making is killing the progressive meter when they aren't happy with the overall results. Instead they need to leave the meter alone (1% or more is a good progression) and take some out of the paytables, for example knocking 8-5 Bonus Poker down to 7-5 or 9-6 Double Double Bonus down to 8-6. That increases the rake but the high meter progression will still bring in the customers. Killing the meter progression pretty much kills the game, nobody is fooled by a supposedly progressive slot where the jackpot hardly moves at all.

Bottom line, if a casino offers 8-5 Bonus or 9-6 Double Double Bonus without progressive, they should also offer 7-5 Bonus or 8-6 Double Double Bonus with 1% progressive or 6-5 Bonus or 7-6 Double Double Bonus with 2% progressive. All of these are about the same hold for the casino, but the progressives will bring in more business.