vpFREE2 Forums

Calculation of Risk of Loss

In a message dated 5/16/2007 5:47:26 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
dabesq@yahoo.com writes:

I am considering some short term play above my normal limits to qualify
for some promotions, but I would like some help calculating the range
of my exposure to loss. For example, playing 9/6 JoB at $1, is there a
calculator that can tell me the range of possible outcomes for a given
number of hands? Say I play 200 hands, what does the distribution of
possible net results look like?

..............
There probably is a calculator [or a Harry Porter or Harry Porter clone]
somewhere to tell you stuff like that but... I'd suggest you play quarters for
four times as long to smooth out losing streaks. Let's say you figure you need
$600 to "guarantee" getting enough coin in to qualify for the promo. What
would be the return on the promo, $30 more a month bounce back for three months?
Would it still be $30 if you figure in the .005% loss on the Jacks game? The
$600 could slide down to zero playing dollars, very easily. How would you
feel then, walking out of the casino like the ploopies you see walking out of
the casino, with that look on their faces? You would feel worse, $600 to get
$30
JT, been there, done that, got the T shirt, the T shirt was one size fits
all so it didn't fit anybody.

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I appreciate the software references, but don't want to invest in
them for a one-time calculation. And the risk of ruin calculator
doesnt quite help me.

Perhaps someone can run the numbers for my particulat situation.
Assume $500 bankroll playing a $1 JoB full coin. After 250 hands,
what is my expected loss at the bottom 20% level -- i.e. 1 out of 5
times I should expect to lose $X or more?

Thanks!

In a message dated 5/16/2007 5:47:26 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
dabesq@... writes:

I am considering some short term play above my normal limits to

qualify

for some promotions, but I would like some help calculating the

range

of my exposure to loss. For example, playing 9/6 JoB at $1, is

there a

calculator that can tell me the range of possible outcomes for a

given

number of hands? Say I play 200 hands, what does the distribution

of

possible net results look like?

..............
There probably is a calculator [or a Harry Porter or Harry Porter

clone]

somewhere to tell you stuff like that but... I'd suggest you play

quarters for

four times as long to smooth out losing streaks. Let's say you

figure you need

$600 to "guarantee" getting enough coin in to qualify for the

promo. What

would be the return on the promo, $30 more a month bounce back for

three months?

Would it still be $30 if you figure in the .005% loss on the Jacks

game? The

$600 could slide down to zero playing dollars, very easily. How

would you

feel then, walking out of the casino like the ploopies you see

walking out of

the casino, with that look on their faces? You would feel worse,

$600 to get

$30
JT, been there, done that, got the T shirt, the T shirt was one

size fits

all so it didn't fit anybody.

************************************** See what's free at

http://www.aol.com.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, jt417552@... wrote:

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Here's what I get from Dunbar's Risk Analyzer for Video Poker.
(assuming no play errors, no cashback, no tipping, $1 JOB, 250
plays, $500 bankroll:

FINAL BANK % CHANGE PROBABILITY
  0 lose 100% 0%
1 - 99 lose 80% to 99% 0%
100 - 199 lose 60% to 80% 2%
200 - 299 lose 40% to 60% 10%
300 - 399 lose 20% to 40% 22%
400 - 499 lose up to 20% 27%
500 - 599 win up to 20% 21%
600 - 699 win 20% to 40% 11%
700 - 799 win 40% to 60% 5%
800 - 899 win 60% to 80% 2%
900 - 999 win 80% to 99+% 1%
1000 + double or more 1%

I wish I could show you the graph!

--Dunbar

PS--the chance of losing $500 is not quite nil. I get that it's
around 1 in 18,000.

I appreciate the software references, but don't want to invest in
them for a one-time calculation. And the risk of ruin calculator
doesnt quite help me.

Perhaps someone can run the numbers for my particulat situation.
Assume $500 bankroll playing a $1 JoB full coin. After 250 hands,
what is my expected loss at the bottom 20% level -- i.e. 1 out of

5

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Danton" <dabesq@...> wrote:

times I should expect to lose $X or more?

Thanks!

Sorry that the table is so hard to read. The formatting is
preserved when I "Preview", but disappears with "Send".

In fact, if you start a "Reply" to the post, you can see the table
in it's formatted form.

Anyway, the last percent in each row is the Probability of that
result occurring. I'll add some commas below to hopefully make it
more readable.

--Dunbar

Here's what I get from Dunbar's Risk Analyzer for Video Poker.
(assuming no play errors, no cashback, no tipping, $1 JOB, 250
plays, $500 bankroll:

FINAL BANK, % CHANGE, PROBABILITY
  0, lose 100%, 0%
1 - 99, lose 80% to 99%, 0%
100 - 199, lose 60% to 80%, 2%
200 - 299, lose 40% to 60%, 10%
300 - 399, lose 20% to 40%, 22%
400 - 499, lose up to 20%, 27%
500 - 599, win up to 20%, 21%
600 - 699, win 20% to 40%, 11%
700 - 799, win 40% to 60%, 5%
800 - 899, win 60% to 80%, 2%
900 - 999, win 80% to 99+%, 1%
1000 +, double or more, 1%

I wish I could show you the graph!

--Dunbar

PS--the chance of losing $500 is not quite nil. I get that it's
around 1 in 18,000.

>
> I appreciate the software references, but don't want to invest

in

> them for a one-time calculation. And the risk of ruin calculator
> doesnt quite help me.
>
> Perhaps someone can run the numbers for my particulat situation.
> Assume $500 bankroll playing a $1 JoB full coin. After 250

hands,

> what is my expected loss at the bottom 20% level -- i.e. 1 out

of

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dunbar_dra" <h_dunbar@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Danton" <dabesq@> wrote:
5
> times I should expect to lose $X or more?
>
> Thanks!
>

Danton wrote:

I appreciate the software references, but don't want to invest in
them for a one-time calculation. And the risk of ruin calculator
doesnt quite help me.

Perhaps someone can run the numbers for my particulat situation.
Assume $500 bankroll playing a $1 JoB full coin. After 250 hands,
what is my expected loss at the bottom 20% level -- i.e. 1 out of 5
times I should expect to lose $X or more?

The free Lottspiech "Gambler's Ruin" calculator to which Jon referred
you is fine for general use. The commercial products which I
discussed have greater flexibility in a number of aspects, including
the ability to analyze a far greater number of games/paytables.

As far as "investing" in a software tool, I'll note that VP for
Winners is (in most respects) the finest practice tutor available.
Should you decide to go beyond what you currently use, it's a
particularly fine option (I do have some reservations about its
suitability for use on an older computer ... say, one that's 3+ years
old -- minimum stated system speed req is 1 GHz). For an investment
of no more than what you'd pop into a machine to see you through a
half-hour of quarter Jacks play, you can't go wrong.

···

------------

Concerning the probability distribution that Jon has detailed from the
Lotspiech calculator, I suspect that he's run it with a different game
than 9/6 Jacks, or used parameters other than what you specified. I
received different results.

Because this involves such a limited hand run, I took a few minutes to
run the analysis using all 3 referenced products: Lotspiech, Dunbar's
VP-RA, and VPW. The results are as follows:

Ending
B/R < Lotspich . . . DVP-RA . . . VPW

-500 . . . 0% . . . . . 0% . . . . 0%
-400 . . . 0% . . . . . 0% . . . . 0%
-300 . . . 2% . . . . . 2% . . . . 2%
-200 . . . 10% . . . . . 10% . . . . 10%
-100 . . . 21% . . . . . 22% . . . . 22%
  0 . . . 26% . . . . . 26% . . . . 26%
100 . . . 20% . . . . . 20% . . . . 20%
200 . . . 11% . . . . . 12% . . . . 11%
300 . . . 5% . . . . . 5% . . . . 5%
400 . . . 2% . . . . . 2% . . . . 2%
500 . . . 0% . . . . . 1% . . . . 1%

500 . . . 1% . . . . . 0% . . . . 0%

The minor differences in values program to program are largely related
to rounding.

------------

As a final comment, I note that you provided the basic rationale for
stepping up to $1 play. However, I wonder whether this move will best
serve your overall goals, particularly if you should be make the large
leap from $.25 play to $1.

As jt notes, you want to take careful stock of the potential benefit
form the play and weigh it against the bankroll risk. I'll add that
you might wish to consider whether there are other options that might
meet your needs.

For example, it may be the case that you're drawn to $1 play in this
case because it's the lowest level at which 9/6 Jacks is offered - all
lower denoms being, say, 8/5. However, on such limited coin-in I'll
suggest that running the play through on lower denom 8/5 Jacks might
be a more prudent move (again, depending upon specifics). If you play
out $1250 coin-in on $.25 8/5 Jacks, you give up about $25 in EV but
significantly cut your loss risk on that play.

This is merely offered as something to mull. There's nothing worse in
tackling a "pot shot" than coming away with a loss that, in hindsight,
the benefits of the play didn't warrant. (Although there's every
reason to expect that you'd approach this prudently without any
prompting :wink:

- Harry