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In a message dated 1/10/2003 11:26:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
quadzilla666@earthlink.net writes:

    More importantly, the burden of proof here should not be on proving
2nd hand smoke causes cancer. The burden of proof should be to demonstrate
that it does NOT cause cancer. Simply put, if it seems likely that 2nd
hand
smoke causes cancer, then it should be banned in all workplaces (at a
minimum).
The error should be on the side of safety.

    Finally, let's just use our brains for a second. We already know that
smoking causes cancer for the primary somker. Now, just what kind of magic
do'
you think happens to make that smoke no longer cause cancer when it is
inhaled
by someone else. It is the same f***ing poison either way.

Quad, me boyo, you've outdone yourself here.

You think the "burden of proof" should be to demonstrate that second hand
smoke DOESN'T cause cancer. Cause that's "safer." And, better yet, if the
primary smoke causes cancer, obviously secondary smoke does the same. I know
that you only committed to the use of your brain "for a second", but I'm
gonna ask you to hang in there a little longer.

How's about tertiery smoke? Just as bad. How's about let's stop them Japanese
from smoking so much cause that same "f***ing poison just drifts over from
Tokyo right into the kids in the San Diego Zoo. Why them Dirty Japs are
killing our babies. But I bet you figured it out. It DOES matter whether it's
the primary smoker or not. Because it's not just the carcinogenic chemical
involved but the concentration of that
chemical that determines its toxicity. So if a particular carcinogen hits the
lungs of the smoker at a density of 100 PPM right from the cigarette into his
lungs, by the time it's partially absorbed, and exhaled into the atmosphere,
it's usually diluted by anywhere from a hundred fold to a million fold by the
time its inhaled by another person a few feet away. Is it possible that it's
still toxic? Sure. But considering that many millions of primary smokers go
for decades without ill effects, the chemicals can't be so toxic that they
are still carcinogenic after such drastic dilution. So unless the smoker
exhales directly into the mouth of someone they are kissing, it seems real
unlikely to be unhealthy. And that's what the courts have confirmed.

Is it unpleasant? Definitely. But I find myself frequently surrounded by
things I consider unpleasant. That's why I'm saving up to buy my own casino.
Until then, I'll have to suffer.

As to your suggestion that the burden is to prove that second hand smoke
doesn't cause illness, it's nearly impossible to prove a negative
correlation. There's been reports that peanuts might be harmful. And
chocolate. And cheeseburgers. Whole lotta provin goin on, I guess.

OK, time's out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 1/10/2003 11:26:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
quadzilla666@earthlink.net writes:

    More importantly, the burden of proof here should not be on proving
2nd hand smoke causes cancer. The burden of proof should be to

demonstrate

that it does NOT cause cancer. Simply put, if it seems likely that 2nd
hand
smoke causes cancer, then it should be banned in all workplaces (at a
minimum).
The error should be on the side of safety.

    Finally, let's just use our brains for a second. We already know that
smoking causes cancer for the primary somker. Now, just what kind of

magic

do'
you think happens to make that smoke no longer cause cancer when it is
inhaled
by someone else. It is the same f***ing poison either way.

<<<
Quad, me boyo, you've outdone yourself here.

You think the "burden of proof" should be to demonstrate that second hand
smoke DOESN'T cause cancer. Cause that's "safer."

  Yes. The intelligent decision here is to protect people from
things that we think are probably poisonous, even if we are not sure.

<<<
How's about tertiery smoke? Just as bad. How's about let's stop them
Japanese
from smoking so much cause that same "f***ing poison just drifts over from
Tokyo right into the kids in the San Diego Zoo.

  You are being ridiculous, and on purpose. I don't know why, unless it is
to blow smoke up our collective asses. The density of smoke decreases over
distances.
If you are arguing that the distance from person to person is sufficient to
decrease the density sufficiently to make the effects of no consequece, then
make a case, but Japan?

<<<
It DOES matter whether it's
the primary smoker or not. Because it's not just the carcinogenic chemical
involved but the concentration of that
chemical that determines its toxicity.

Smoke dissipates, but it is not uniformly over an imaginary sphere around
a smoker. It tends to move horizontally. You and I both know that the
smoke from a nearby smoker can be pretty thick.

Furthermore, second hand smoke exposure is often continuous. So, even if
the level is less (and I agree it is), the cumulative level of poison
is still plenty high to be a potential problem.

<<<
So if a particular carcinogen hits the
lungs of the smoker at a density of 100 PPM right from the cigarette into
his
lungs, by the time it's partially absorbed, and exhaled into the atmosphere,
it's usually diluted by anywhere from a hundred fold to a million fold by
the
time its inhaled by another person a few feet away.

A million fold....? NFW. A hundred fold sounds a bit more realistic, but
some of that smoke is probably closer to only one half as dense.

<<<
Is it possible that it's
still toxic? Sure.

  That is the entire point. Furthermore, it is LIKELY that it is
toxic.

<<<
But considering that many millions of primary smokers go
for decades without ill effects, the chemicals can't be so toxic that they
are still carcinogenic after such drastic dilution.

  You and I both know that different people are genetically predisposed
to varying levels of susceptability to these chemicals. The fact that some
people survive decades of smoking is completely irrelavent to all of these
discussions. I assume you know this too, so why make the point unless it
is to cloud the issue.

<<<
Is it unpleasant? Definitely. But I find myself frequently surrounded by
things I consider unpleasant. That's why I'm saving up to buy my own casino.
Until then, I'll have to suffer.

If it were merely an issue of annoyance, then I would not be taking
the position I do.

<<<
As to your suggestion that the burden is to prove that second hand smoke
doesn't cause illness, it's nearly impossible to prove a negative
correlation.

  On this I agree, but since the levels of smoke necessary to cause
cancer are not known, we have no alternative. I would love to see an
analysis of cancer rates among non-smokers in the professions of dealing,
bartending, etc. If those cancer rates were comparable to those of
non-smokers,
I would be inclined to belive your view. This data would prove or disprove
this issue.

<<<
There's been reports that peanuts might be harmful. And
chocolate. And cheeseburgers. Whole lotta provin goin on, I guess.

  Yep. And if you made me take a bite of cheeseburger every
time you ate one by me, I would have every right to object. Here we
have another totally lame, irrelavent argument. I guess you have
to resort to these tactics since your position itself is pretty weak.

<<<
OK, time's out.

   Dream on.

  QZ

I think the use of this slur was over the line........

WW

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, chiefvrwc2@a... wrote:

Why them Dirty Japs

The state of Nevada is in the process of such a
study, on the effects of all the second-hand smoke on
non-smoking dealers. Some are taking special vitamins
to see if it helps. Once the data come out, in about a
year, I think, there will probably be a major move to
ban the crap in casinos for the sake of the workers'
health.
   I can't wait.

Elaine

···

  On this I agree, but since the levels of smoke
necessary to cause
cancer are not known, we have no alternative. I
would love to see an
analysis of cancer rates among non-smokers in the
professions of dealing,
bartending, etc. If those cancer rates were
comparable to those of
non-smokers,
I would be inclined to belive your view. This data
would prove or disprove
this issue.

<

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I won't argue the negative issues of smoking. But that aside, let's get back to how that might affect casinos or VP. Nevada has tried no-smoking casinos and they failed miserably. Again, not arguing any health issues. If a casino can't make it with no-smoking bans, it has a choice of closing, or allowing smoking. Which do you think the casinos will do when it comes to the bottom line.

ADR

···

At 09:11 AM 1/13/03, you wrote:

I think, there will probably be a major move to
ban the crap in casinos for the sake of the workers'
health.
   I can't wait.

Elaine

<<<
   The state of Nevada is in the process of such a
study, on the effects of all the second-hand smoke on
non-smoking dealers. Some are taking special vitamins
to see if it helps. Once the data come out, in about a
year, I think, there will probably be a major move to
ban the crap in casinos for the sake of the workers'
health.
   I can't wait.

  I don't trust Nevada to be objective. The
casinos are strongly opposed to any sort of controls
on smoking. The Nevada government is pretty much
run by them.

  QZ

The fallacy of their "experiment" is that they took an old, rundown casino that
had years and years of smokers in it and tried to make it non-smoking. It
still reeked of tobacco smoke.

Most of the non-smoking areas I've seen have the lowest paytables of all the
machines in the casino.

How about a real fair test to see if it works???

AJ

adr wrote:

···

At 09:11 AM 1/13/03, you wrote:
>I think, there will probably be a major move to
>ban the crap in casinos for the sake of the workers'
>health.
> I can't wait.
>
>Elaine

I won't argue the negative issues of smoking. But that aside, let's get
back to how that might affect casinos or VP. Nevada has tried no-smoking
casinos and they failed miserably. Again, not arguing any health issues.
If a casino can't make it with no-smoking bans, it has a choice of closing,
or allowing smoking. Which do you think the casinos will do when it comes
to the bottom line.

ADR

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adr wrote:

>I think, there will probably be a major move to
>ban the crap in casinos for the sake of the workers'
>health.
> I can't wait.
>
>Elaine

I won't argue the negative issues of smoking. But that aside, let's get
back to how that might affect casinos or VP. Nevada has tried no-smoking
casinos and they failed miserably.

Both the Riverside and Harrah's in Laughlin have separate casino rooms
designated non-smoking. Both seemed quite busy the last time we
visited.

···

At 09:11 AM 1/13/03, you wrote:

--
Pat O'Connell
Take nothing but pictures, Leave nothing but footprints,
Kill nothing but vandals...

Most of the non-smoking areas I've seen have the lowest paytables of all

the

machines in the casino.

True in many cases, perhaps, but at the new Agua Caliente tribal casino in
Palm Springs, I found that the only bank of good pay slant tops was waaayyyy
over in a corner of the non-smoking area. Oddly, the non-smoking section
was largely deserted on a Sunday afternoon, while the smoking side was
packed. I had no problem "quitting" for an hour or so to play on the
non-smoking side, but the point is I'd like the option to remain mine.

Of course, the tribal casinos, will retain their right to decide the
matter, regardless of what state or local governments have to say about it.

lb

True in many cases, perhaps, but at the new Agua Caliente tribal casino in
Palm Springs, I found that the only bank of good pay slant tops was

waaayyyy

over in a corner of the non-smoking area.

Could you tell us what that particular bank has? We've been thinking of
visiting Palm Springs, but won't step into any casino unless it's
worthwhile, smoking or not.
-- Steve in LV

They can also follow the Bellagio's route. The Bellagio installed a fantastic air filtration system, so you can barely tell smoking is allowed in the joint unless you're within a few feet of a smoker. But I hear the systems are very expensive.

Elaine

I think, there will probably be a major move to
ban the crap in casinos for the sake of the workers'
health.
   I can't wait.

Elaine

I won't argue the negative issues of smoking. But that aside, let's get
back to how that might affect casinos or VP. Nevada has tried no-smoking
casinos and they failed miserably. Again, not arguing any health issues.
If a casino can't make it with no-smoking bans, it has a choice of closing,
or allowing smoking. Which do you think the casinos will do when it comes
to the bottom line.

ADR

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···

adr <adr@basicallycredit.com> wrote:At 09:11 AM 1/13/03, you wrote:

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It was 9/6 job. Far left corner as you walk in from the parking garage
entrance. There are plenty of "fair" pay dw there, but all on the smoking
side and all uprights. Two nice banks of slant top Bonus deuces, also on
smoking side adjacent to bar. Comps are ridiculously tight, snack bar is
so-so, but the place is expansive, clean, and exactly like a Vegas casino,
but no craps tables...only that incredibly stupid electronic craps game that
seats six and doesn't allow a Don't Pass bet.
lb

···

Could you tell us what that particular bank has? We've been thinking of
visiting Palm Springs, but won't step into any casino unless it's
worthwhile, smoking or not.