vpFREE2 Forums

Boring ol' mathematics

#1

Since most of the megatoilets have caught on to the "play 9/6 Jacks
and live like a king while visiting Vegas" trick, they have either
shot down the comp percentage for VP or destroyed their inventory.
The fact of the matter is that .33 comps are about the best you can
do, and "discretionary" comps? Forget it! So, let's say you pound
away at a 9/6 Strip megatoilet JOB until you've earned $200 in
comps, perhaps covering your room and meals for the weekend...this
translates to $60,000 action which creates a loss of just under $300.
The only case where the JOB play even works marginally is where you
get comps of .5 or better.

AND! There's one simple thing that gets overlooked...the OPPORTUNITY
cost of failing to play positive VP. Playing quarter deuces (as
opposed to dollar JOB, as in the above example) you realize a win of
$7/hr. A good weekend's effort will make you about $100. You will
still realize some comps.

Also, the comps at the megatoilets cannot be taken at face value
when you consider that they are for already grossly overpriced rooms
and meals. A comp for a $229 hotel room is not actually worth $229.

Thus, the play remains to go ahead and stay at the glitter joints if
you must, but take your action elsewhere. Playing the comp game will
merely accelerate your net losses. In the above example, the "savvy"
comp hound with his JOB action paid $200 more in real money for his
trip, than someone who stayed, but didn't gamble, at the megatoilets.

#2

Hey Kevin,

You're not trying to bash the play choice of a few of us who migrate
out to the strip a couple of times for some quality pool time now, are
you?

Look, if it doesn't work for you, I've got no qualms. But I figure
that the people around here are intelligent enough to gravitate to the
plays that work best for them.

By the way, you're shortselling the economics of strip play a bit from
my experience.

- Harry

#3

Why not just stay and play at offstrip "Fancy Digs" .
You can stay and play at places like the Palms or even better Green
Valley Ranch, get great rooms, great food opportunities and good VP
as well. Anybody that can get comped at the Bellagio can get comped
at these places, and if you are paying for rooms, the ones at the GVR
are probably a bargain in comparison.

Regards
A.P.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mkl54321 <mkl54321@y...>"
<mkl54321@y...> wrote:

Also, the comps at the megatoilets cannot be taken at face value
when you consider that they are for already grossly overpriced

rooms

and meals. A comp for a $229 hotel room is not actually worth $229.

Thus, the play remains to go ahead and stay at the glitter joints

if

you must, but take your action elsewhere. Playing the comp game

will

merely accelerate your net losses. In the above example,

the "savvy"

comp hound with his JOB action paid $200 more in real money for his
trip, than someone who stayed, but didn't gamble, at the

megatoilets.

#4

apearson5a wrote:

Why not just stay and play at offstrip "Fancy Digs" .
You can stay and play at places like the Palms or even better Green
Valley Ranch, get great rooms, great food opportunities and good VP
as well. Anybody that can get comped at the Bellagio can get comped
at these places, and if you are paying for rooms, the ones at the GVR
are probably a bargain in comparison.

Out of curiousity, anyone know from personal experience what it takes
to get full RFB (gourmet) at GVR? I've never seen hard numbers.

- Harry

#5

A couple of themes I've seen in the various forums over the years:

1)LV locals are often puzzled over the attraction of the strip to seemingly knowledgeable visitors.

2) Visitors can't understand how pros/semi-pros make decent money playing VP. On face value, for example, quarter FPDW is only worth about $7/hour.

Having been both a visitor and LV local, maybe I can shed some light.

The answer to both can be found in the mailbox.

When I was a visitor, the overriding factor on choosing where to play was ROOM OFFERS. Visitors get much better mailings from strip casinos than LV locals usually see - the total value of these are often staggering - adding up to 4% to the EV of the play. Granted, this is mostly comps, not cash, but to visitors, comps are often just as good as cash. We would often play just enough to trigger strip room offers, then head over to a local's casino for better VP. Conversely, most local's casinos make weak room offers to visitors. Hence, the decision as to where to play isn't as simple as it might seem. Throw in the spouse/kids/friends factor, and it's no wonder that many knowledgeable visitors will wind up on the strip.

As a LV local "advantage" player (semi-pro? weekend warrior?), I get local's mailings that add up to 1% (sometimes more) to my total EV. Of course, you have to be disciplined enough to chase down each of the coupons (I sometimes wonder if LV would have traffic jams if local's mailings were banned :^)...), and you need play the minimum necessary to get these offers in order to maximize EV. Also, we play much faster than most newbies might imagine possible - often over 1000 hands per hour. Practice makes perfect.

john

Harry Porter wrote:

···

Hey Kevin,

You're not trying to bash the play choice of a few of us who migrate
out to the strip a couple of times for some quality pool time now, are
you?

Look, if it doesn't work for you, I've got no qualms. But I figure
that the people around here are intelligent enough to gravitate to the
plays that work best for them.

By the way, you're shortselling the economics of strip play a bit from
my experience.

- Harry

#6

Good post, John.

Of course, I've never questioned the availability of relatively
frequent excellent local plays in LV (especially above $.25).

And I'd call into question the sanity of someone who hit LV a dozen
times a year or so and mostly played the strip.

But speaking as someone from Philly who slugs out positive play in AC
through the year (and sometimes you can take that "slug" literally),
on the two or three occasions each year we endure the flight to LV
we're looking for a real getaway. I don't think the allure of the
strip to a player such as myself is that difficult to grasp without
thinking I must have a screw or two loose.

The recent offer of $500 cash and three nights suite RFB from the
Hilton has got us shuffling to book our next 10-night LV extravaganza.
(A weekend trip from the east coast isn't our cup of tea.) VERY
attractive offers from NYNY and Caesars look like they'll fill out our
trip quite nicely, and a day's play to establish ourselves at GVR is a
likely prospect.

- Harry

#7

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter <harry.porter@v...>"
<harry.porter@v...> wrote:

Good post, John.

Of course, I've never questioned the availability of relatively
frequent excellent local plays in LV (especially above $.25).

And I'd call into question the sanity of someone who hit LV a dozen
times a year or so and mostly played the strip.

But speaking as someone from Philly who slugs out positive play in

AC

through the year (and sometimes you can take that "slug" literally),
on the two or three occasions each year we endure the flight to LV
we're looking for a real getaway. I don't think the allure of the
strip to a player such as myself is that difficult to grasp without
thinking I must have a screw or two loose.

The recent offer of $500 cash and three nights suite RFB from the
Hilton has got us shuffling to book our next 10-night LV

extravaganza.

(A weekend trip from the east coast isn't our cup of tea.) VERY
attractive offers from NYNY and Caesars look like they'll fill out

our

trip quite nicely, and a day's play to establish ourselves at GVR

is a

likely prospect.

- Harry

Been to LV and Biloxi, but never AC. Where would you recommend going
to play VP in AC?

#8

keenman55 wrote:

Been to LV and Biloxi, but never AC. Where would you recommend going
to play VP in AC?

"Advantage" play in AC can be tough (thus my "slugging it out"
comment). One aspect that makes it difficult for visitors is that
almost all cashback now is bounceback -- available on a return visit
and good for 60-120 days, depending upon casino.

Plus, the best opportunities are dependent upon limited time promos --
some of which are available only to the most faithful of clientele.
The best plays are pretty much limited to 9/6 Jacks, available in
almost negligible quantities at $.25 and $.50, and on a handful of
machines at $1+ at a limited number of the casinos. $.25 pick'em is
the favorite of the low-rollers, but those players have been under a
steady assault of reduced cashback lately. Caesars did just introduce
a bank of $.25 JB prog's, a rarity at that level for AC, however plays
there can be fly-by-night and we're all keeping our fingers crossed.

$8-$10K/day will cover your room comp at most casinos, although you
can jump that by 50% or more for weekends once late spring rolls around.

Frankly, AC doesn't make for an overly attractive visitor play. Were
I ever to move back to the midwest (I've been in Philly since '81) I
don't think AC would see my face again. But for a "local" (i.e.
within 2 or 3 hrs. drive) it can make a healthy steady diet of play
with an aggressive coordination of promotions.

- Harry

#9

Didn't mean my post to be any sort of rebuttal directed toward Harry; I hold Harry's posts in the highest regard. I was just hopping up on my soapbox and blathering at the citizens of cyberspace in general.

john

Harry Porter wrote:

···

Good post, John.

Of course, I've never questioned the availability of relatively
frequent excellent local plays in LV (especially above $.25).

#10

John Kelly wrote:

Didn't mean my post to be any sort of rebuttal directed toward Harry; I
hold Harry's posts in the highest regard. I was just hopping up on my
soapbox and blathering at the citizens of cyberspace in general.

Gosh, John ... Did I go and let my latent streak of insecurity rear
it's ugly head once more? :slight_smile:

- H.

#11

I might see another reason to pound away at the 9/6 JB in the Bellagio _ for a couple hours only. To get on their mailing list.
   I could never afford to stay at the Bellagio on my own. But if I play for a couple hours, they might send me an offer more in my price range. I would like to experience the joint just once.
   Getting that kind of luxury at a reduced rate would be worth a $10-$12 theoretical loss for that session. (Of course, it depends on whether I win or lose, but I don't know that til it's over.)
Elaine
"mkl54321 <mkl54321@yahoo.com>" <mkl54321@yahoo.com> wrote:! So, let's say you pound
away at a 9/6 Strip megatoilet JOB until you've earned $200 in
comps, perhaps covering your room and meals for the weekend...this
translates to $60,000 action which creates a loss of just under $300.
The only case where the JOB play even works marginally is where you
get comps of .5 or better.

···

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