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Bob Dancer's LV Advisor Column - 10 JUL 2012

#1

Bob Dancer's LV Advisor Column - 10 JUL 2012

"How the Mighty Have Fallen"

http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/bob_dancer/2012/0710.cfm

<a href="http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/bob_dancer/2012/0710.cfm">
http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/bob_dancer/2012/0710.cfm</a>

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This link is posted for informational purposes
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#2

Speaking of the 26c JoB Ten Plays at Palms, there was an Asian family of three playing them yesterday with an iPhone app of WinPoker, and they were punching in almost every hand to determine the best play.

Bob Dancer's LV Advisor Column - 10 JUL 2012

"How the Mighty Have Fallen"

http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/bob_dancer/2012/0710.cfm

<a href="http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/bob_dancer/2012/0710.cfm">
http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/bob_dancer/2012/0710.cfm</a>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 10, 2012, at 4:38 PM, vpFREE Administrator <vpfree3355@gmail.com> wrote:

#3

Speaking of the 26c JoB Ten Plays at Palms, there was an Asian family of three playing them yesterday with an iPhone app of WinPoker, and they were punching in almost every hand to determine the best play.

As far as I can tell (not a lawyer), they are lucky they weren't arrested:

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/NRS-465.html#NRS465Sec075

NEVADA CHAPTER 465 - CRIMES AND LIABILITIES CONCERNING GAMING

INRS 465.075 Use or possession of device to obtain advantage at playing game in licensed gaming establishment.

     1. It is unlawful for any person to use, possess with the intent to use or assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device which is designed, constructed, altered or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed gaming establishment, including, without limitation, a device that:

     (a) Projects the outcome of the game;

     (b) Keeps track of cards played or cards prepared for play;

     (c) Analyzes the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to a game; or

     (d) Analyzes the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,

Ê except as may be made available as part of an approved game or otherwise permitted by the Commission.

     2. As used in this section, "advantage" means a benefit obtained by one or more participants in a game through information or knowledge that is not made available as part of the game as approved by the Board or Commission.

     (Added to NRS by 1985, 970; A 2011, 216)

ST

#4

Speaking of the 26c JoB Ten Plays at Palms, there was an Asian family of three playing them yesterday with an iPhone app of WinPoker, and they were punching in almost every hand to determine the best play.

As far as I can tell (not a lawyer), they are lucky they weren't arrested:

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/NRS-465.html#NRS465Sec075 I suppose I interpret the law the same way that you do --- EXCEPT --- I've never heard of anybody being busted for using an iPhone app to help them play video poker. Have you? Until that law is used to arrest somebody and it goes through the courts, it's impossible to know what that law really means. For a law to be meaningful it needs to be enforced. Bob

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#5

I use that app occasionally in AC and have never had the slightest problem. Subsections C and D however, do seem to fit the criteria. It appears this law is designed to prevent real cheaters like cameras on the roulette wheel and what not. The way it reads you can use a paper strategy card at blackjack but not a picture of a strategy card stored on your phone. You can use "video poker strategy cards" sold by the "pro's" at loutrageous prices, but you can't use a strategy analyzer on an iphone app. Sounds silly. Because as long as your playing a negative game like 9/6, the casino still has the advantage. FPDW you have an actual advantage but a very leal one. I personally don't see it being a problem. But I wouldn't wanna find out the hard way.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bob Dancer <bobdancervp@...> wrote:

> Speaking of the 26c JoB Ten Plays at Palms, there was an Asian family of three playing them yesterday with an iPhone app of WinPoker, and they were punching in almost every hand to determine the best play.

As far as I can tell (not a lawyer), they are lucky they weren't arrested:

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/NRS-465.html#NRS465Sec075 I suppose I interpret the law the same way that you do --- EXCEPT --- I've never heard of anybody being busted for using an iPhone app to help them play video poker. Have you? Until that law is used to arrest somebody and it goes through the courts, it's impossible to know what that law really means. For a law to be meaningful it needs to be enforced. Bob

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#6

That smoldering turd of a law was crapped out by legislative panic in 1985 over hidden BJ computers. It is widely regarded in legal circles as a joke (unconstitutionally vague). As Stanford Wong Pointed out that year in Winning Gamer, all baccarat players using tracking cards beware, because "pens and pencils are 'devices' and you could get ten years in prison." I almost wish the state would attempt a prosecution, just to watch this sorry legal stink pie go down in flames.

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Sent from TC iPad

On Jul 11, 2012, at 2:18 PM, Bob Dancer <bobdancervp@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Speaking of the 26c JoB Ten Plays at Palms, there was an Asian family of three playing them yesterday with an iPhone app of WinPoker, and they were punching in almost every hand to determine the best play.

As far as I can tell (not a lawyer), they are lucky they weren't arrested:

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/NRS-465.html#NRS465Sec075 I suppose I interpret the law the same way that you do --- EXCEPT --- I've never heard of anybody being busted for using an iPhone app to help them play video poker. Have you? Until that law is used to arrest somebody and it goes through the courts, it's impossible to know what that law really means. For a law to be meaningful it needs to be enforced. Bob

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#7

We were in Harrahs Tahoe and saw a couple playing $10 10x using the iPone or Ipodtouch app. looking up almost every hand. There was a casino employee watching them writing all the W-2g's so this must not be an issue. Makes no sense that paper is OK, while a phone app. isn't.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bob Dancer <bobdancervp@...> wrote:

> Speaking of the 26c JoB Ten Plays at Palms, there was an Asian family of three playing them yesterday with an iPhone app of WinPoker, and they were punching in almost every hand to determine the best play.

As far as I can tell (not a lawyer), they are lucky they weren't arrested:

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/NRS-465.html#NRS465Sec075 I suppose I interpret the law the same way that you do --- EXCEPT --- I've never heard of anybody being busted for using an iPhone app to help them play video poker. Have you? Until that law is used to arrest somebody and it goes through the courts, it's impossible to know what that law really means. For a law to be meaningful it needs to be enforced. Bob

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#8

Does anyone have more details on the drawing at the palms or know where I can find them? I'm an out of Towner and did the 1000 loss rebate today with enough points for the 100 gift cert. Is it even worth showing up Friday or is the equity so small it's not worth the extra trip? (assuming I would peaw again)

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, vpFREE Administrator <vpfree3355@...> wrote:

Bob Dancer's LV Advisor Column - 10 JUL 2012

"How the Mighty Have Fallen"

http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/bob_dancer/2012/0710.cfm

<a href="http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/bob_dancer/2012/0710.cfm">
http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/bob_dancer/2012/0710.cfm</a>

*************************************************
This link is posted for informational purposes
and doesn't constitute an endorsement or approval
of the linked article's content by vpFREE. Any
discussion of the article must be done in
accordance with vpFREE's rules and policies.
*************************************************

#9

It will be a sad day for video poker players if casinos allow the use of electronic devices in the casino to assist players. The only possible outcome will be the downgrade of the few playable opportunities that remain.

···

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 12, 2012, at 10:00 AM, "the7thwarrior" <Judy@realtor.com> wrote:

We were in Harrahs Tahoe and saw a couple playing $10 10x using the iPone or Ipodtouch app. looking up almost every hand. There was a casino employee watching them writing all the W-2g's so this must not be an issue. Makes no sense that paper is OK, while a phone app. isn't.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#10

Reminds me of LV Hilton security chasing down sports book cell users, or last month's Hard Rock concert where security spent most of the time fighting patrons taking cell video and pics. While your conclusion may be correct, attempting to limit or ban smartphone use in 2012 is clearly a losing battle.

TC

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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On Jul 12, 2012, at 10:35 PM, Vegasvpplayer <vegasvpplayer@gmail.com> wrote:

It will be a sad day for video poker players if casinos allow the use of electronic devices in the casino to assist players. The only possible outcome will be the downgrade of the few playable opportunities that remain.._,___

#11

Vegasvpplayer wrote: It will be a sad day for video poker players if casinos allow the use of electronic devices in the casino to assist players. The only possible outcome will be the downgrade of the few playable opportunities that remain.

I disagree. Using an iPhone APP is VERY slow. Playing with a strategy memorized strong players can play at 800-1000 an hour or so. Looking up every hand you can play at a rate of 100 hands an hour or so. Someone who starts out their session looking up every play usually quickly gets bored with the process and abandons it.

Usually players using such an APP for playing a lot of hands are not particularly competent. They don't know the game well and they are still making mistakes on some of the hands they don't look up.

A decent player with such an APP might check it a few times an hour at most. As a tool it's a useful one but the end result is that most players who have one in the casino do not use it ENOUGH. Just having the APP with them gives them a lot of confidence that they feel they don't need to use the APP.

Bottom line, It is a useful-enough tool to the competent player, but I don't think it has much of an effect on a casino's bottom line.

Bob

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#12

I wouldn't want to be the guy who in 1 in 5,000+ hands decides to check my smartphone app or an online VP site on my smartphone while I'm playing to see if I should keep 3 to the sequential royal versus a made flush playing 50c Aces & Eights and then win a $25,000 royal (or the equivalent payday in another game) only to not get paid by the casino (and possibly worse) because I was using an electronic device to obtain an advantage to analyze the strategy for playing the game.

Perhaps you would, because it would be great publicity for you and Nersesian when you fight it.

BUT for the average player (many of whom don't live in Las Vegas), they can afford neither to lose a $25,000 payday, nor the time out of work to fight it, nor the risk of the possible arrest on their record which could jeopardize their current employment or future employment potential.

For the average person (although it is a stupid and outdated law) it seems ridiculous to take the risk, when you don't have to by alternatively copying and pasting and just printing out a small-font, color-coded, strategy card on heavy-weight paper stock using a $100 inkjet printer and then cutting it to a hand-held size with a pair of scissors (or paying $5.00 and buying an accurate strategy card) for their game(s) of choice and using it sporadically when in doubt about an infrequent play.

Bob: You as a gambler are in the risk/reward business and the risk to you is much different than it would be to most other people. So before you go telling people their is essentially no risk involved in using an electronic device to gain an advantage checking a strategy while playing, why don't you consider their potential risks and not just look at it based on your own.

I realize the casinos would be idiots to try to enforce it, but ... .

ST

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bob Dancer <bobdancervp@...> wrote:

Vegasvpplayer wrote: It will be a sad day for video poker players if casinos allow the use of electronic devices in the casino to assist players. The only possible outcome will be the downgrade of the few playable opportunities that remain.

I disagree. Using an iPhone APP is VERY slow. Playing with a strategy memorized strong players can play at 800-1000 an hour or so. Looking up every hand you can play at a rate of 100 hands an hour or so. Someone who starts out their session looking up every play usually quickly gets bored with the process and abandons it.

Usually players using such an APP for playing a lot of hands are not particularly competent. They don't know the game well and they are still making mistakes on some of the hands they don't look up.

A decent player with such an APP might check it a few times an hour at most. As a tool it's a useful one but the end result is that most players who have one in the casino do not use it ENOUGH. Just having the APP with them gives them a lot of confidence that they feel they don't need to use the APP.

Bottom line, It is a useful-enough tool to the competent player, but I don't think it has much of an effect on a casino's bottom line.

Bob

#13

ST wrote: Bob: You as a gambler are in the risk/reward business and the risk to you is much different than it would be to most other people. So before you go telling people their is essentially no risk involved in using an electronic device to gain an advantage checking a strategy while playing, why don't you consider their potential risks and not just look at it based on your own.

I didn't say there was essentially no risk involved. What I said is that this law has never been enforced to my knowledge. For the record, I have no plans on doing a risk/reward study for everybody on vpFREE simply because ST says I should consider this. Bob

  .

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#14

Bob Dancer wrote, "I didn't say there was essentially no risk involved."

Perhaps you didn't say those exact words. But, you certainly did imply it.

~Luke

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On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 3:20 PM, Bob Dancer <bobdancervp@hotmail.com> wrote:

ST wrote: Bob: You as a gambler are in the risk/reward business and the
risk to you is much different than it would be to most other people. So
before you go telling people their is essentially no risk involved in
using an electronic device to gain an advantage checking a strategy while
playing, why don't you consider their potential risks and not just look at
it based on your own.

I didn't say there was essentially no risk involved. What I said is that
this law has never been enforced to my knowledge. For the record, I have
no plans on doing a risk/reward study for everybody on vpFREE simply
because ST says I should consider this. Bob

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15

I agree with Bob that there is essentially no risk. Really it's the same as using strategy cards. If it becomes an issue we will know about it.
In a related matter, now that VP Genius seems to be down for good, does anyone know of a free site where on can get the EV of various hands and play online with a "corrector" if you make the wrong play?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bob Dancer <bobdancervp@...> wrote:

ST wrote: Bob: You as a gambler are in the risk/reward business and the risk to you is much different than it would be to most other people. So before you go telling people their is essentially no risk involved in using an electronic device to gain an advantage checking a strategy while playing, why don't you consider their potential risks and not just look at it based on your own.

I didn't say there was essentially no risk involved. What I said is that this law has never been enforced to my knowledge. For the record, I have no plans on doing a risk/reward study for everybody on vpFREE simply because ST says I should consider this. Bob

  .

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#16

I may not be the best one to say this as I have been guilty in the past of piling on Bob Dancer. The effect was that Bob wouldn't post on vpFREE for quite awhile. And I lost insight from one of the best minds in the business. That's not so say that I won't exchange in meaningful debate in the future. But I refrain from nitpicking him anymore.