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Bob Dancer's CasinoGaming Column - 4 DEC 2007

Playing Better 10/7 Double Bonus Poker --- Part II of II

http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2007/1204.html

<a href="http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2007/1204.html">
http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2007/1204.html</a>

···

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Bob dancer states "There are those who claim that they can play
faster at the lower level and that more than makes up for the 21¢ an
hour. Perhaps so, for them. Not for me."

For once Bob admitted there may be an advantage to playing faster,
however ...

Bob also states at the end of his column "While not simple, Double
Bonus is a game that can be mastered. I know several strong players
who can ace this test. If you're going to compete with them, perhaps
you need to play that well too."

After seeing such an absurd claim I got to wondering just what is
Bob's agenda? One is naturally to produce a column each week, but
that does not require making these kind of statements. The only
conclusion I could come to for claiming a game slowing increase
of .005% (21 cents and hour) is necessary, is to sell more strategy
cards.

In case you don't believe me do the math. Even if you ignore the
advantage inherent in the game look at the cashback. Several casinos
are offering CB at rates up to 1% this month. But, let's just look at
a .7% CB that is offered at one casino where I know they have 10/7
DB. A single hand of $ DB costs $5 which translates into 3.5 cents of
CB at this rate. So, it would take only 6 additional hands/hour to
completely balance out the gain Bob has claimed for detailed analysis
of each hand. I don't know about anyone else but I could see that
analysis slowing a player down by 100 hands/hour or more (which would
make the game more less profitable even with no CB).

Don't get me wrong. I think every player should follow a constant
improvement methodology. That is, one should always be trying to
improve their skills. However, be smart about it. Don't LOSE money by
attempting to get better just because Bob Dancer says you should.
Find your own personal accurate playing speed (it is different for
everyone) first and add details as long as they don't slow you down
and can actually improve your bottem line.

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFae" <vpFae@...> wrote:

Playing Better 10/7 Double Bonus Poker --- Part II of II

http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2007/1204.html

>
> Playing Better 10/7 Double Bonus Poker --- Part II of II
>
> http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2007/1204.html

Bob dancer states "There are those who claim that they can play
faster at the lower level and that more than makes up for the 21¢

an

hour. Perhaps so, for them. Not for me."

For once Bob admitted there may be an advantage to playing faster,
however ...

Bob also states at the end of his column "While not simple, Double
Bonus is a game that can be mastered. I know several strong

players

who can ace this test. If you're going to compete with them,

perhaps

you need to play that well too."

After seeing such an absurd claim I got to wondering just what is
Bob's agenda? One is naturally to produce a column each week, but
that does not require making these kind of statements. The only
conclusion I could come to for claiming a game slowing increase
of .005% (21 cents and hour) is necessary, is to sell more

strategy

cards.

In case you don't believe me do the math. Even if you ignore the
advantage inherent in the game look at the cashback. Several

casinos

are offering CB at rates up to 1% this month. But, let's just look

at

a .7% CB that is offered at one casino where I know they have 10/7
DB. A single hand of $ DB costs $5 which translates into 3.5 cents

of

CB at this rate. So, it would take only 6 additional hands/hour to
completely balance out the gain Bob has claimed for detailed

analysis

of each hand. I don't know about anyone else but I could see that
analysis slowing a player down by 100 hands/hour or more (which

would

make the game more less profitable even with no CB).

Don't get me wrong. I think every player should follow a constant
improvement methodology. That is, one should always be trying to
improve their skills. However, be smart about it. Don't LOSE money

by

attempting to get better just because Bob Dancer says you should.
Find your own personal accurate playing speed (it is different for
everyone) first and add details as long as they don't slow you

down

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mroejacks" <rgmustain@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFae" <vpFae@> wrote:
and can actually improve your bottem line.

Dick

*******************************************************************
???
What makes you think you would play that much slower? or that much
faster? (100 hands an hour?)
Why should we not get better?
Whats wrong with somebody selling somthing to make money in America?
If we get too good we wont make Money?
I would lose money if I try to get better because Bob Dancer says I
should ?
What about if Skip or Jean Scott says I should? Will I make money ?
Dont they sell info too?
What does "personal accurate speed" mean ?

If I am "accurate" wont that mean I know the "details" already ?

Was it not a 21 cent increase IF you got the ?'s in part one all
right FIRST ?

DB tuff game to play well much less perfect.

I also do not play it perfect YET as I too ignore most penalty cards
but that does not mean we are right.

Those that can like Mr Dancer play it perfect are right, Those of us
who cant are wrong. I can live with it for DB , but not for NSUD.
It took a while but I do play that game perfect now.

& wait until you are trying to figure out the correct plays for a 5
way .25 DDB progs, If the royal is $1745 is the ace/10 playable?
Would a $674 4aces with kicker affect your decision? What about 4 to
a royal over a pair of queens? 3 to a royal over high pair?
At what level ,if any, does a single ace becoms a better play than
four to a flush? Or better than a small pair? or better than a pair
of jacks?
If four 2's, 3's or 4's plus kicker is $325 Would a FH of 2's 3,s
4,s over a pair be worth tossing ? What about $410 ? or ever?

Since this the best .25 game by far at my local Native casino I had
to know even if DDB is not my favorite game. ( & a royal pain in the
ass to learn)

The experience i had in learning to play other games perfectly
REALLY helped in the learning process. Without the rate of return
tables on our newest Hall of Fame member Michael Schackleford
Wizardofodds website it would be impossibille for me, Thank you very
much!!

.7 & 1% cb for full pay VP?? You should be there playing . Heck I
should be there playing. Hell we all should be!!

M J

*******************************************************************
???

?

What makes you think you would play that much slower? or that much
faster? (100 hands an hour?)

If you think you can automatically spot every one of these situations
every time WITHOUT slowing down then you are kidding yourself. My
estimate of 100 hands/hour may actually be too small for the average
person.

Why should we not get better?

We should. That is exactly what I said ... maybe you should read my
post before responding. I told you exactly how to "get better", Bob
only told you how to play more accurately which is not the same thing.

Whats wrong with somebody selling somthing to make money in America?

Nothing. However, if they are disguising their money making attempts
as a way to help readers, when they are much more likely to cost the
vast majority of readers money, then I think it's appropriate for
that FACT to be pointed out. Do you have something against the truth?

If we get too good we wont make Money?

Nonsense. Looks like you missed the point entirely. Maybe you should
go back and reread my post as it will HELP you make MORE money.

I would lose money if I try to get better because Bob Dancer says I
should ?

You will lose money if you try to do more than you are capable of
doing. In almost every endeavor there is a concept known as
diminishing returns. At some point it diminishes so much it costs
MORE than the gain. That is the point.

What about if Skip or Jean Scott says I should? Will I make money ?

It's not the messenger ... it's the message. If either of them had
written this article my position wuld be unchanged.

Dont they sell info too?

If you have a point maybe you should state it.

What does "personal accurate speed" mean ?

It means the fastest speed at which a person is comfortable and
playing accurately. It's "personal" because it's different for
everyone. When anyone tries to play too fast they will lose accuracy.
By the very nature of VP the number of situations that is being
checked for on every hand will be a factor in the speed. I read your
description of multiple progressives below so I know you understand
this point. Why are you playing dumb?

If I am "accurate" wont that mean I know the "details" already ?

No one plays perfectly except a computer. Therefore, accuracy can
ONLY mean a range of values somewhere below perfect when referring to
us mere humans. That range of values and the law of diminishing
returns is something you need to spend a little time thinking about.

Was it not a 21 cent increase IF you got the ?'s in part one all
right FIRST ?

Yes and no. The increase was additive but by the very nature of the
game, I'm sure there are some dependencies on understanding part I
first.

DB tuff game to play well much less perfect.

Now you're getting the point.

I also do not play it perfect YET as I too ignore most penalty

cards

but that does not mean we are right.

It might. If applying more details slows you down so much that you
are losing more EV than you are gaining and/or you are making more
major errors because you don't see the forest for the trees. (cliche
intended). If you start focusing on inside straights or FL3 penalties
and miss a pair just how long do you think it will take to make up
the difference.

Those that can like Mr Dancer play it perfect are right,

Bob Dancer does not play perfectly. I don't play perfectly. Neither
does any human.

Those of us
who cant are wrong. I can live with it for DB , but not for NSUD.
It took a while but I do play that game perfect now.

I doubt that very much. Are you absolutely sure you SEE every single
play on every hand? If you can answer "yes" to this question and you
are playing a +EV situation, then you are probably losing money
playing so slowly.

& wait until you are trying to figure out the correct plays for a 5
way .25 DDB progs, If the royal is $1745 is the ace/10 playable?
Would a $674 4aces with kicker affect your decision? What about 4

to

a royal over a pair of queens? 3 to a royal over high pair?
At what level ,if any, does a single ace becoms a better play than
four to a flush? Or better than a small pair? or better than a pair
of jacks?
If four 2's, 3's or 4's plus kicker is $325 Would a FH of 2's 3,s
4,s over a pair be worth tossing ? What about $410 ? or ever?

Since this the best .25 game by far at my local Native casino I had
to know even if DDB is not my favorite game. ( & a royal pain in

the

ass to learn)

It sounds like you're reiterating my point. BTW, the game I play most
often is OEJs. It makes DB and your DDB progressive seem like child's
play in comparison. I would never attempt to learn OEJs perfectly as
it would be a waste of time and yet I know it probably better than
almost anyone. The reason ... the law of diminishing returns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mklpryy24" <mklpryy24@...> wrote:

DEC 2007

Those that can like Mr Dancer play it perfect are right, Those of us
who cant are wrong. I can live with it for DB , but not for NSUD.
It took a while but I do play that game perfect now.

OK, here's my offer to you. I will fade all of the action that you can
handle re: your "perfect" play at NSUD. I get to construct the 100 hand test
which will be performed on WinPoker version 6.0.5. I will even spot you two
errors out of the 100 hands. If you get the third strike, you lose. If
you're interested in this and want to take it private, and off the board,
email me at nudge51@cox.net . I'm always open for easy money opportunities.
                                                     Nudge

···

From: "mklpryy24" Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Bob Dancer's CasinoGaming Column - 4

& wait until you are trying to figure out the correct plays for a 5
way .25 DDB progs, If the royal is $1745 is the ace/10 playable?
Would a $674 4aces with kicker affect your decision? What about 4

to

a royal over a pair of queens? 3 to a royal over high pair?
At what level ,if any, does a single ace becoms a better play than
four to a flush? Or better than a small pair? or better than a pair
of jacks?
If four 2's, 3's or 4's plus kicker is $325 Would a FH of 2's 3,s
4,s over a pair be worth tossing ? What about $410 ? or ever?

Since this the best .25 game by far at my local Native casino I had
to know even if DDB is not my favorite game. ( & a royal pain in

the

ass to learn)

We're not likely to find a $1745 royal on the 4 Queens bank because
the meter is only .25%. It would have to miss something like
240,000 games to put it on that number. There would be a discount
from that for the short coin action but that big a royal on that bank
would be a very rare occurance.

But what if I were in town for a few days and walked into the Queens
and there was a big royal like that? What would I do? I don't know
all those breakpoints either, and I'm not particularly boned up on
double double bonus (I can play the game close enough, though).
But, I'll tell you what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna play anyway. I
might not be getting all of the best of it, but I would be getting
the best of it.

Since I don't know the breakpoints for every situation I'm gonna use
the KISS principle. Keep it simple, stupid, and just use the base
strategy. By "base" I mean the strategy predicated on the royal
paying $1,000. With an exception, though. I frequently play the 9/6
Jacks progressives in Wendover. I know that the breakpoint for even
the most penaltied up 3-card royal, Qs-Qh-Ah-Th-4h, for example, is
right at 5600 coins. I also know that high pairs, other than Aces,
have better ER in 9/6 Jacks than in the double and double double
games. The quads pay higher in those games but the far more common
two pair hits pay less. So I would know that I'm far far over the
breakpoints for 3-card royals versus high pairs other than Aces. So
I'm gonna make that move.

And that move alone will probably knock my royal odds under 36,000.
Being dealt three to the royal and catching two is the most frequent
way, of all the ways, that one makes royals.

And I'm not gonna sweat the rest of it. I'm gonna play until the
royal goes or I get tired of playing. But if I were living in
downtown Las Vegas, like I have in the past and will in the future, I
would do some serious homework on that bank.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mklpryy24" <mklpryy24@...> wrote:

> & wait until you are trying to figure out the correct plays for

a 5

> way .25 DDB progs, If the royal is $1745 is the ace/10 playable?
> Would a $674 4aces with kicker affect your decision? What about

4

to
> a royal over a pair of queens? 3 to a royal over high pair?
> At what level ,if any, does a single ace becoms a better play

than

> four to a flush? Or better than a small pair? or better than a

pair

> of jacks?
> If four 2's, 3's or 4's plus kicker is $325 Would a FH of 2's

3,s

> 4,s over a pair be worth tossing ? What about $410 ? or ever?
>
> Since this the best .25 game by far at my local Native casino I

had

> to know even if DDB is not my favorite game. ( & a royal pain in
the
> ass to learn)
>

We're not likely to find a $1745 royal on the 4 Queens bank

because

the meter is only .25%. It would have to miss something like
240,000 games to put it on that number. There would be a discount
from that for the short coin action but that big a royal on that

bank

would be a very rare occurance.

But what if I were in town for a few days and walked into the

Queens

and there was a big royal like that? What would I do? I don't

know

all those breakpoints either, and I'm not particularly boned up on
double double bonus (I can play the game close enough, though).
But, I'll tell you what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna play anyway. I
might not be getting all of the best of it, but I would be getting
the best of it.

Since I don't know the breakpoints for every situation I'm gonna

use

the KISS principle. Keep it simple, stupid, and just use the base
strategy. By "base" I mean the strategy predicated on the royal
paying $1,000. With an exception, though. I frequently play the

9/6

Jacks progressives in Wendover. I know that the breakpoint for

even

the most penaltied up 3-card royal, Qs-Qh-Ah-Th-4h, for example,

is

right at 5600 coins. I also know that high pairs, other than

Aces,

have better ER in 9/6 Jacks than in the double and double double
games. The quads pay higher in those games but the far more common
two pair hits pay less. So I would know that I'm far far over

the

breakpoints for 3-card royals versus high pairs other than Aces.

So

I'm gonna make that move.

And that move alone will probably knock my royal odds under

36,000.

Being dealt three to the royal and catching two is the most

frequent

way, of all the ways, that one makes royals.

And I'm not gonna sweat the rest of it. I'm gonna play until the
royal goes or I get tired of playing. But if I were living in
downtown Las Vegas, like I have in the past and will in the

future, I

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mklpryy24" <mklpryy24@> wrote:
would do some serious homework on that bank.

*********************************************************************
Hy
apreciate your points, the bank i am at is at a Local Native casino.
I use the wizards of odds info showing how much each hand
contributes to the total return, ie: the royal in ddb contributes %
1.99 to the return. make it 2% , so $1500 royal I increase the
return to 3%, Am I figuring it out right? I need only a ruff
estimate for most decisions I face.
And I do enjoy the homework : )

M J

>
>

···

> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mklpryy24" <mklpryy24@> wrote:

*********************************************************************

Hy
apreciate your points, the bank i am at is at a Local Native

casino.

I use the wizards of odds info showing how much each hand
contributes to the total return, ie: the royal in ddb contributes %
1.99 to the return. make it 2% , so $1500 royal I increase the
return to 3%, Am I figuring it out right? I need only a ruff
estimate for most decisions I face.
And I do enjoy the homework : )

M J
>

It's not exactly computer perfect but it's close enough for the girls
I go out with. The imprecision errs on the conservative side which
is good. But it's just a teensy weensy error. I personally would
break it down from $500 equals 1% to $50 equals .1% That way it is
easy to deal with numbers like $1450, $1650, etc.

And, since you make the Ace with Kicker about every 16,000 games I
would figure an add-on of .1% for every $20 extra in that meter.
16,000 X $1.25= $20,000. $20,000 X .001= $20. Good luck.