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Bob Dancer's CasinoGaming Column - 14 FEB 2006

Who's the Customer?

http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2006/0214.html

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Interesting persepctive and good food for thought. However, many of Bob's posts undermine his premise. Here's what I mean:
   
  According to Bob's premise, if you're making money from the casino, the casino is your customer. His arguement doesn't differentiate between casinos that offer positive games and those that do not. I can see Bob's point for casinos that offer positive games. That is, if you play positive games perfectly and make money by running the cash through the machines, then fine - they're your customers.
   
  Unfortunately, we all know that the days of positive machines are mostly behind us (and in some jurisdictions are prohibited). Instead, pros (including Bob) have told us repeatedly that they mostly make their money from bounceback and promotions (that they earn while playing negative games).
   
  Businesses market to their customers - not vice versa. If the casinos view Bob as a supplier (which would make them his customers), they wouldn't send him offers or allow him to participate in promotions. Businesses do not market to their suppliers UNLESS they have a strategic reason for wanting to do business with a particular supplier. (That is, if a casino wants to be able to tell its customers that "Bob Dancer plays here so you should too" they may offer a particular supplier --such as Bob-- an inducement for an endorsement.)
   
  Regardless, if the casinos didn't market to their large players like Bob, then, with their totally negative plays, players like Bob wouldn't step foot on their properties and patronize their gaming offerings. This demonstrates that Bob is in fact the customer of many of the casinos he patronizes.
   
  Lainie

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vpFREE Administrator <vp_free@yahoo.com> wrote:
  Who's the Customer?

http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2006/0214.html

<a href="http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2006/0214.html">
http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2006/0214.html</a>

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Lainie Wolf wrote:

Interesting persepctive and good food for thought. However, many of
Bob's posts undermine his premise. Here's what I mean:
   
According to Bob's premise, if you're making money from the
casino, the casino is your customer ...

Lainie, I hold some differences with this article as well, though not
on the same count as you.

You argue that there is fault in his definition of what a customer
represents when he claims, as a player with a profit expectation, that
"the casino is his customer".

Frankly, I read his general message as being "when you have a good
thing, don't mess it up by complaining unnecessarily -- and form your
expectations accordingly". I take that to heart because often I
complain about what I may have to put up with, without taking care to
remember what motivates me to tolerate that circumstance in the first
place. (I'm not talking about situations in the extreme, such as
restaurants that inflict repeated bouts of food sickness.)

He suggests, the balance running in favor of the player having a
profit expectation, that this player think of the casino as being
their customer -- shifting the expectation from one in which the
casino should be eager to please to one where the player should be
anxious to keep the casino "warm and fuzzy".

I can see that, but the "casino is my customer" paradigm stretches a
bit. It doesn't fit, in part for many of the reasons you cite.

Let's face it, we're talking a parasitic relationship here --
"blood-sucking fleas on the underbelly of the beast" is how I've heard
it put. The casino tolerates "advantage" players because it isn't yet
feasible (or at least economic) to identify such players and shed them
-- an attempt to do so in a wholesale manner risks clawing away the
casino's own viscera (profitable players) in the process.

But that's not to say that if a particular flea singles itself out by
being particularly irritating that the beast won't manage to flail
away at it. Thus Bob's message -- make a nice comfortable nest for
yourself and siphon away, and don't make an unnecessary pain of
yourself (even if the beast rolls over on you occasionally ;).

- Harry

Harry, I really like your posts, and I got a good laugh out of this... You are right, of course. One thing however -- rather than thinking of advantage players like us as being, "blood-sucking fleas on the underbelly of the beast," I prefer to think of us as being paid shills who put our own money at risk to make the casino look like a fun place to play.
   
  I can't tell you how many times I've sat down to play the one advantage play on a machine and then watch the rest of the bank fill up with video Keno, 8/5 DDB and 6/5 Bonus players. Sadly, the amount the casino loses to me is NOTHING compared to the revenues I bring in to them by attracting players who play losing games. I really believe that as long as we make the casinos "full and fun," they'll continue to put up with us.
   
  Lainie
  
  Lainie Wolf wrote:

Interesting persepctive and good food for thought. However, many of
Bob's posts undermine his premise. Here's what I mean:
   
According to Bob's premise, if you're making money from the
casino, the casino is your customer ...

Lainie, I hold some differences with this article as well, though not
on the same count as you.

You argue that there is fault in his definition of what a customer
represents when he claims, as a player with a profit expectation, that
"the casino is his customer".

Frankly, I read his general message as being "when you have a good
thing, don't mess it up by complaining unnecessarily -- and form your
expectations accordingly". I take that to heart because often I
complain about what I may have to put up with, without taking care to
remember what motivates me to tolerate that circumstance in the first
place. (I'm not talking about situations in the extreme, such as
restaurants that inflict repeated bouts of food sickness.)

He suggests, the balance running in favor of the player having a
profit expectation, that this player think of the casino as being
their customer -- shifting the expectation from one in which the
casino should be eager to please to one where the player should be
anxious to keep the casino "warm and fuzzy".

I can see that, but the "casino is my customer" paradigm stretches a
bit. It doesn't fit, in part for many of the reasons you cite.

Let's face it, we're talking a parasitic relationship here --
"blood-sucking fleas on the underbelly of the beast" is how I've heard
it put. The casino tolerates "advantage" players because it isn't yet
feasible (or at least economic) to identify such players and shed them
-- an attempt to do so in a wholesale manner risks clawing away the
casino's own viscera (profitable players) in the process.

But that's not to say that if a particular flea singles itself out by
being particularly irritating that the beast won't manage to flail
away at it. Thus Bob's message -- make a nice comfortable nest for
yourself and siphon away, and don't make an unnecessary pain of
yourself (even if the beast rolls over on you occasionally ;).

- Harry

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Harry Porter <harry.porter@verizon.net> wrote:

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Lainie wrote: According to Bob's premise, if you're making money from
the casino, the casino is your customer. His arguement doesn't
differentiate between casinos that offer positive games and those that
do not. I can see Bob's point for casinos that offer positive games.
That is, if you play positive games perfectly and make money by running
the cash through the machines, then fine - they're your customers.

I don't make the same distinction that you do. It is the sum of [game +
cash back + relevant promotions + bounce back] that is important to me.
Whether the game itself returns over 100% is just one rather-unimportant
part of the equation. I consider 9/6 Jacks with a 1% promotion to be a
positive game, and a better deal than a 10/7 game with a 0.2% promotion
(if 10/7 came in the same denomination).

I don't know what point you're making, Lainie, by differentiating
between these two cases. As Harry paraphrased my article in his post, it
makes sense not to create waves in both situations.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Four of us will be coming with luggage for 5 days, two have golf bags. I am concerned that we won't fit in a cab from the airport ot the TI. Anyone have a good suggestion (other than renting a car)? Are there limos you can hire for a reasonable fee? Need advance reservations?

dick

In my opinion, even a limo would have a hard time with all of that luggage. Why not just take two cabs. That would still cost you about the same as a limo, good luck in Vegas.

Dick Kalagher <rkalagher@cox.net> wrote: Four of us will be coming with luggage for 5 days, two have golf bags. I am
concerned that we won't fit in a cab from the airport ot the TI. Anyone
have a good suggestion (other than renting a car)? Are there limos you can
hire for a reasonable fee? Need advance reservations?

dick

Bob, while I agree with your thesis ("don't bite the hand that feeds you"); I just disagree with your argument. I know it's a subtlety, but after all, it's the subtleties that make the difference. (note, additional comments in blue below).

Bob Dancer <bob.dancer@compdance.com> wrote: I don't make the same distinction that you do. It is the sum of [game +
cash back + relevant promotions + bounce back] that is important to me.
    Yes, but if the casino is your CUSTOMER then promotions and bounce back would be zero. Think about it like this... you pay your gardener to come and mow your lawn (game) and may pay him/her a holiday bonus (cash back), but when was the last ime you sent him/her a promotion (such as "if you trim my trees this Thursday, I'll also hire you to fertilize") or bounce back (such as "if you mow my lawn this Tuesday, I'll pay you an extra $50"). You don't because customers don't market to their suppliers.
   
  {snip} {snip}
   
  I don't know what point you're making, Lainie, by differentiating
between these two cases.
   
  My point is that unless slot club benefits are published and guaranteed (such as those at Coast and Stations), you can't count promotions and cash back into your EV until you redeem it. Because the play you do to earn it is prospective play (and you are not guarenteed anything), you are the customer.
   
  I hope this is clearer to you.
   
  Lainie

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lainie wrote: My point is that unless slot club benefits are published
and guaranteed (such as those at Coast and Stations), you can't count
promotions and cash back into your EV until you redeem it.

And my point is that frequently a "best guess" is all that's available
as to what the benefits will be --- based on your knowledge of what the
casino has done in the past. While this is imperfect information, it is
often the best possible. I make a lot of decisions based on my "best
guess". Counting benefits as zero because you don't know something for
certain, and then treating the check in the mail as a big "surprise"
(when you've had regular similar-sized checks in the past) doesn't seem
right to me. These best guesses help me decide whether to play at Casino
A or Casino B. If you're not using such information to make your
decisions, you're leaving money on the table.

There were a few other people in this general thread who said that it's
ALWAYS appropriate to act politely when in a casino.. Although this may
have seemed to be the theme of my article in the first place, I strongly
disagree with the statement. There are times in a casino when it is
appropriate (personally defined) where you need to stand up and protect
your right, or protest something or someone. There are times when doing
this isn't perceived as "polite" by other people. So be it. While my
point was that advantage players need to "put up with" more [pick your
expletive] than non-advantage players, putting up with EVERYTHING
because you believe you should ALWAYS act politely is NOT what I am
recommending.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Seems to me about a third of all the taxis at the
airport are really minivans. I bet they'd be large
enough for what you describe.

···

--- ANTHONY AMODEO <anthonyjamodeo@yahoo.com> wrote:

In my opinion, even a limo would have a hard time
with all of that luggage. Why not just take two
cabs. That would still cost you about the same as a
limo, good luck in Vegas.

Dick Kalagher <rkalagher@cox.net> wrote: Four of us
will be coming with luggage for 5 days, two have
golf bags. I am
concerned that we won't fit in a cab from the
airport ot the TI. Anyone
have a good suggestion (other than renting a car)?
Are there limos you can
hire for a reasonable fee? Need advance
reservations?

dick

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Good Morning, Bob.

I do believe that it is possible to POLITELY "stand up for your
rights". I don't think that verbalizing a legimate complaint must
necessarily be phrased in such a way as to offend the person being
addressed.

Anyone that knows me at all, even just as an anonymous voice on this
board, is aware that I demand to be treated with respect, and will
not tolerate rude, offensive or inconsiderate behavior.

I am in total agreement that grievances between player and casino
should be redressed with all due fervor and haste. I see no
conflict in accomplishing this in a mature and civil manner,

"Flying off the handle", using foul language or screaming at the
individual with whom you're trying to make your point, is both
immature and counter-productive. Trying to solve a problem by
bullying the other person, usually provides that person with all the
ammunition needed to refuse to rule in your behalf.

So, I guess we're both on the same page, but perhaps reading a
different paragraph.

Regards,
-Babe-

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@...> wrote:

..........................There were a few other people in this
general thread who said that it's ALWAYS appropriate to act politely
when in a casino.. Although this may have seemed to be the theme of
my article in the first place, I strongly disagree with the
statement. There are times in a casino when it isappropriate
(personally defined) where you need to stand up and protect your
right, or protest something or someone. There are times when doing
this isn't perceived as "polite" by other people. So be it.........
Bob Dancer

There are several shuttle companies that work out of McCarran. Most
use minivans; the rest use small buses. Normally these shuttles work
between the airport and a certain group of hotels, but if your party
fills up a minivan, they're more than likely to go straight to the TI
-- espeially if you tip the driver well. The ones with small buses
will obviously be able to handle your party, but you'll likely have to
wat out an extra stop or two. (Personally, I don't mind that.)

Robert

Four of us will be coming with luggage for 5 days, two have golf

bags. I am

concerned that we won't fit in a cab from the airport ot the TI.

Anyone

have a good suggestion (other than renting a car)? Are there limos

you can

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Dick Kalagher" <rkalagher@...> wrote:

hire for a reasonable fee? Need advance reservations?

dick