vpFREE2 Forums

BOB DANCER, DAN PAYMAR, AND ROB SINGER

Bob wrote:

One of the advantages of Dan's advanced age is he now has a very
forgetful nature. Anyone who has been on vpFREE for very long knows that
Dan has posted numerous negative items about me and my work here, not to
mention several quite negative remarks in his own publication. I'd be
happy to document what I am saying, but doing it here will get me
restricted or banished.

Bob, you repeatedly make such claims, but the only negative things I have said about you are that you make unsubstantiated negative statements about me. For example, you have repeatedly claimed that I have recommended several variations from best EV strategy, but you have yet to actually quote anything I have said to back that up. It would not get you banished to quote me. But, of course, I have never recommended any such thing except to optimize one's strategy by ignoring close decisions where the long-run cost is less than the likely cost of errors made by recreational players in trying to follow a more complex strategy.

If anything, my "advanced age" has improved my memory.

It's time to document your statements or shut up.

···

--
Dan Paymar
Author of best selling book, "Video Poker - Optimum Play"
Editor/Publisher of VP newsletter "Video Poker Times"
Developer of VP analysis/trainer software "Optimum Video Poker"
Visit my web site at www.OptimumPlay.com

"Chance favors the prepared mind." -- Louis Pasteur

Dan wrote: It's time to document your statements or shut up.

  I'm not clear why Dan wishes to continue this "debate." I
certainly do not, and I will not participate if there are any further
posts in this thread.

  In late Summer 2005, Dan posted here comparing me to Rob Singer.
(I was not a member or lurker of vpFREE at the time and I had done
nothing to provoke such a comment. Dan's comments were sent to me by a
member here.) I find that comparison offensive. Rob Singer and I agree
on very little video-poker-wise, whereas Dan and I agree on probably 95%
of things video-poker-wise. According to Dan in that post, I have never
published nor created any strategies (in truth I have likely written
more columns about accurate video poker strategy than anybody else ---
probably more than all other authors put together). He wrote that I
regularly overbet my bankroll (he has no idea about how many million
dollars are in my bankroll or exactly what games I play and the
associated slot club and promotions. In 2001 I was taking a potshot at
the MGM Grand under pretty rigid "stoploss" conditions. Dan wrote as
though I did that frequently and currently. He was wrong). He wrote that
I care about nobody else (which is surprising --- he surely doesn't
think I talked the Fiesta into adding a lot of good nickel through
quarter games for ME to play, does he?) He criticized me for talking to
casinos (which is a fair criticism, however one that Dan wouldn't make
if casinos felt he knew enough to pay him for advice. But since they
don't, he criticizes people who casinos DO feel are knowledgeable enough
to pay for advice.)

  We reviewed one of Dan's strategies here recently, although much
of the thread got shunted off to FREEvpFREE because Dan could not
discuss it without shouting. I demonstrated to him that his claim of
Jazbo saying the strategy was within 0.01% of perfect was incorrect by
manually proving it was actually something like 0.014% off. Dan never
admitted he was wrong. He said "an analyst showed it was only 0.014%
off", refusing to acknowledge that I could figure out how inaccurate his
strategies were even if he couldn't. (Even 0.01% isn't anything to brag
about in that game. FVP has it down to about a third of that. Better
penalty-free strategies than FVP are possible.) If we would have
reviewed Dan's KBJW strategy, we would have found it to be substantially
worse. In his first edition of "Optimum Play", Dan provides a test for
KBJW of about 20 questions and then proceeds to give the wrong answer to
4 of them. Accurate strategies are simply not Dan's forte. His
strategies are more accurate than Lenny Frome's (which was relevant when
Dan first started publishing, but Lenny's been dead for eight years and
isn't still publishing), but the standard has risen considerably since
then and Dan's strategies haven't.

  Anyone who thinks that Dan's strategies are simplified and/or
easy to use hasn't looked at instruction 6 of his Jacks or Better
strategy recently. This instruction is filled with and's, or's, and
semi-colons, and is quite torturous. In addition to being inaccurate, it
is quite confusing.

  When I hinted at Dan's plagiarism, you might want to ask him why
his publisher of the first edition of "Optimum Play" refused to let him
include a strategy for 10/7 Double Bonus --- clearly the best over-100%
game for dollars and higher at the time, and in some casinos the best
game for quarters. If he's honest in his explanation (fat chance!) he'll
tell you that there were credible charges that Dan copied the strategy
from me and that Dan himself was incapable of creating a strategy for
the game from scratch. (Dan DID put a picture of 9/7 Double Bonus on the
cover of the book, a curious choice for a booking calling itself
"Optimum Play," but not a word about the game inside the book. For the
"rave review" that most authors include on the back cover of a book, Dan
got Jean Scott to say, basically, that she hasn't seen the book but if
she ever does, she thinks she will probably like it. As rave reviews go,
this was extremely weak.)

  There are currently no good beginner's book on video poker. In
"Million Dollar Video Poker," I described Dan's book as the best of a
bad lot. I stand by that assessment. Jean's book on the subject will be
coming out relatively soon and hopefully will be much better. Jean
herself isn't particularly knowledgeable about the fine points of video
poker (she freely admits this, but downplays its importance), but she
has friends who are (many on this site), a co-author, and a hands-on
publisher with a history of very good gambling books. It at least has
the potential to become the best beginning video poker book out there.
We'll see. Being better than "Optimum Play", though, isn't a very high
standard.

  This process of criticizing Dan's work is not fun for me. I
didn't start this thread. I do not wish to continue it. Anyone who wants
to criticize me for bashing Dan please remember that Dan demanded I
explain myself. I did. I would appreciate it if this thread just dropped
off the planet --- or transferred to FREEvpFREE where I will not
participate.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

Bob wrote: "....I will not participate if there are any further posts in
this thread."

Thank God.

···

On 6/13/06, Bob Dancer <bob.dancer@compdance.com> wrote:

Dan wrote: It's time to document your statements or shut up.

       I'm not clear why Dan wishes to continue this "debate." I
certainly do not, and I will not participate if there are any further
posts in this thread.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This post is the written equivalent of repeatedly
poking a guy in the chest while saying over and
over again I don't want to fight you.

It is a strange genius indeed that is so oblivious to
its own flaws.

Dan wrote: It's time to document your statements or shut up.

  I'm not clear why Dan wishes to continue this "debate." I
certainly do not, and I will not participate if there are any

further

posts in this thread.

  In late Summer 2005, Dan posted here comparing me to Rob

Singer.

(I was not a member or lurker of vpFREE at the time and I had done
nothing to provoke such a comment. Dan's comments were sent to me

by a

member here.) I find that comparison offensive. Rob Singer and I

agree

on very little video-poker-wise, whereas Dan and I agree on

probably 95%

of things video-poker-wise. According to Dan in that post, I have

never

published nor created any strategies (in truth I have likely

written

more columns about accurate video poker strategy than anybody

else ---

probably more than all other authors put together). He wrote that I
regularly overbet my bankroll (he has no idea about how many

million

dollars are in my bankroll or exactly what games I play and the
associated slot club and promotions. In 2001 I was taking a

potshot at

the MGM Grand under pretty rigid "stoploss" conditions. Dan wrote

as

though I did that frequently and currently. He was wrong). He

wrote that

I care about nobody else (which is surprising --- he surely doesn't
think I talked the Fiesta into adding a lot of good nickel through
quarter games for ME to play, does he?) He criticized me for

talking to

casinos (which is a fair criticism, however one that Dan wouldn't

make

if casinos felt he knew enough to pay him for advice. But since

they

don't, he criticizes people who casinos DO feel are knowledgeable

enough

to pay for advice.)

  We reviewed one of Dan's strategies here recently, although

much

of the thread got shunted off to FREEvpFREE because Dan could not
discuss it without shouting. I demonstrated to him that his claim

of

Jazbo saying the strategy was within 0.01% of perfect was

incorrect by

manually proving it was actually something like 0.014% off. Dan

never

admitted he was wrong. He said "an analyst showed it was only

0.014%

off", refusing to acknowledge that I could figure out how

inaccurate his

strategies were even if he couldn't. (Even 0.01% isn't anything to

brag

about in that game. FVP has it down to about a third of that.

Better

penalty-free strategies than FVP are possible.) If we would have
reviewed Dan's KBJW strategy, we would have found it to be

substantially

worse. In his first edition of "Optimum Play", Dan provides a test

for

KBJW of about 20 questions and then proceeds to give the wrong

answer to

4 of them. Accurate strategies are simply not Dan's forte. His
strategies are more accurate than Lenny Frome's (which was

relevant when

Dan first started publishing, but Lenny's been dead for eight

years and

isn't still publishing), but the standard has risen considerably

since

then and Dan's strategies haven't.

  Anyone who thinks that Dan's strategies are simplified and/or
easy to use hasn't looked at instruction 6 of his Jacks or Better
strategy recently. This instruction is filled with and's, or's, and
semi-colons, and is quite torturous. In addition to being

inaccurate, it

is quite confusing.

  When I hinted at Dan's plagiarism, you might want to ask him

why

his publisher of the first edition of "Optimum Play" refused to

let him

include a strategy for 10/7 Double Bonus --- clearly the best over-

100%

game for dollars and higher at the time, and in some casinos the

best

game for quarters. If he's honest in his explanation (fat chance!)

he'll

tell you that there were credible charges that Dan copied the

strategy

from me and that Dan himself was incapable of creating a strategy

for

the game from scratch. (Dan DID put a picture of 9/7 Double Bonus

on the

cover of the book, a curious choice for a booking calling itself
"Optimum Play," but not a word about the game inside the book. For

the

"rave review" that most authors include on the back cover of a

book, Dan

got Jean Scott to say, basically, that she hasn't seen the book

but if

she ever does, she thinks she will probably like it. As rave

reviews go,

this was extremely weak.)

  There are currently no good beginner's book on video poker.

In

"Million Dollar Video Poker," I described Dan's book as the best

of a

bad lot. I stand by that assessment. Jean's book on the subject

will be

coming out relatively soon and hopefully will be much better. Jean
herself isn't particularly knowledgeable about the fine points of

video

poker (she freely admits this, but downplays its importance), but

she

has friends who are (many on this site), a co-author, and a hands-

on

publisher with a history of very good gambling books. It at least

has

the potential to become the best beginning video poker book out

there.

We'll see. Being better than "Optimum Play", though, isn't a very

high

standard.

  This process of criticizing Dan's work is not fun for me. I
didn't start this thread. I do not wish to continue it. Anyone who

wants

to criticize me for bashing Dan please remember that Dan demanded I
explain myself. I did. I would appreciate it if this thread just

dropped

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@...> wrote:

off the planet --- or transferred to FREEvpFREE where I will not
participate.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.