Bob Dance Article in Casino Player

[brucem]

Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but in BD's column in
the March issue of Casino Player he discusses progressive VP, a
particular interest of mine. I thought it was pretty good. He
emphasizes how to determine the feed rate, plus a variety of other
issues pertaining to progressives.

Also, he mentions the need to use WinPoker "or another analyzer".
So, to his credit, he's saying WinPoker is not the only software
available. But he didn't mention the others specifically. On the
same page is a big ad for his two recent books, etc.

[Elliott_L_Shapiro2]

Dancer has consistantly written that a royal cyle is about 40,000. He
writes this relative to progressives as well.
If the royal is at 200% of the reset, the cycle is closer to 33,000,
NOT 40,000.
He is so devoted to minute accuraccy that I do not know why he makes
this glaring error, each time that he writes about progressives.

···

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:37:45 -0000, you wrote:

Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but in BD's column in
the March issue of Casino Player he discusses progressive VP, a
particular interest of mine. I thought it was pretty good. He
emphasizes how to determine the feed rate, plus a variety of other
issues pertaining to progressives.

Also, he mentions the need to use WinPoker "or another analyzer".
So, to his credit, he's saying WinPoker is not the only software
available. But he didn't mention the others specifically. On the
same page is a big ad for his two recent books, etc.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Gilbert_Escobar]

Talk about Royal cycle -- especially on Progressives...
40,000 or 33,000 or whichever one is correct, does this change at
all if somehow someone playing 1-coin or 2-coin had (silently) hit
the Royal as the Progressive Jackpot keeps rolling up and up?

I've seen a $5 Progressive around $33,000 and someone hit the Royal
playing 1-coin. The next day, the jackpot was up to over $42,000
and new people playing keep thinking no one has hit the Royal yet.
How do you measure the Royal cycle in this scenario?

(The jackpot was finally hit around $50,000)

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Elliott L. Shapiro
<elliotts2345@e...> wrote:

Dancer has consistantly written that a royal cyle is about

40,000. He

writes this relative to progressives as well.
If the royal is at 200% of the reset, the cycle is closer to

33,000,

NOT 40,000.
He is so devoted to minute accuraccy that I do not know why he

makes

this glaring error, each time that he writes about progressives.

>
>
>Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but in BD's column

in

>the March issue of Casino Player he discusses progressive VP, a
>particular interest of mine. I thought it was pretty good. He
>emphasizes how to determine the feed rate, plus a variety of

other

>issues pertaining to progressives.
>
>Also, he mentions the need to use WinPoker "or another

analyzer".

>So, to his credit, he's saying WinPoker is not the only software
>available. But he didn't mention the others specifically. On

the

···

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:37:45 -0000, you wrote:
>same page is a big ad for his two recent books, etc.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Elliott_L_Shapiro2]

If the computer software says that the cycle is 33,000 or whatever,
this is only an average over 100's or thousands of royal cycles. If
the figure was exact, not an average, then if hit with one coin, the
next would hit 33,000 hands later. But, it does NOT work that way.

Full pay deuces wild says that there will be a quad every 15.4 hands.
Play 10 or 100 million hands and I assume that that figure will be the
average of quads back to back and quads 100 hands apart, etc.

···

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 07:56:55 -0000, you wrote:

Talk about Royal cycle -- especially on Progressives...
40,000 or 33,000 or whichever one is correct, does this change at
all if somehow someone playing 1-coin or 2-coin had (silently) hit
the Royal as the Progressive Jackpot keeps rolling up and up?

I've seen a $5 Progressive around $33,000 and someone hit the Royal
playing 1-coin. The next day, the jackpot was up to over $42,000
and new people playing keep thinking no one has hit the Royal yet.
How do you measure the Royal cycle in this scenario?

(The jackpot was finally hit around $50,000)

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Elliott L. Shapiro
<elliotts2345@e...> wrote:

Dancer has consistantly written that a royal cyle is about

40,000. He

writes this relative to progressives as well.
If the royal is at 200% of the reset, the cycle is closer to

33,000,

NOT 40,000.
He is so devoted to minute accuraccy that I do not know why he

makes

this glaring error, each time that he writes about progressives.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:37:45 -0000, you wrote:

>
>
>Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but in BD's column

in

>the March issue of Casino Player he discusses progressive VP, a
>particular interest of mine. I thought it was pretty good. He
>emphasizes how to determine the feed rate, plus a variety of

other

>issues pertaining to progressives.
>
>Also, he mentions the need to use WinPoker "or another

analyzer".

>So, to his credit, he's saying WinPoker is not the only software
>available. But he didn't mention the others specifically. On

the

>same page is a big ad for his two recent books, etc.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

[jaydavidson118]

Besides feed rate the key to finding high progressives, is finding
progresssives where a high percentage of the players play less than
max coins, they add to the progressive but have no chance of claiming
it. The higher the denomenation the greater the percentage of players
will play lesss than max. coins. This sometimes even makes sense from
an ev point of view, I have seen situations where the $5 pay tables
are so much better than the $1 paytables, that a player who only
wants to bet $5 per hand is better off playing a single $5 bet versus
a max $1 game, even with the royal short pay. Dollar ddb machines
are another good place to look for high progressives, many players
play these machines at $2 per hand loooking for the $800 aces plus
kicker. Remember a game where a higher percentage of the ev of the
games comes from the royal will be even more advantageous to play
when the progressives is high, assuming you hit the royal. Dancer was
confused on this point in his Sam's town article, good thing he has
his software package to help him out.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "gilbert_616" <gilbert_616@y...> wrote:

Talk about Royal cycle -- especially on Progressives...
40,000 or 33,000 or whichever one is correct, does this change at
all if somehow someone playing 1-coin or 2-coin had (silently) hit
the Royal as the Progressive Jackpot keeps rolling up and up?

I've seen a $5 Progressive around $33,000 and someone hit the Royal
playing 1-coin. The next day, the jackpot was up to over $42,000
and new people playing keep thinking no one has hit the Royal yet.
How do you measure the Royal cycle in this scenario?

(The jackpot was finally hit around $50,000)

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Elliott L. Shapiro
<elliotts2345@e...> wrote:
> Dancer has consistantly written that a royal cyle is about
40,000. He
> writes this relative to progressives as well.
> If the royal is at 200% of the reset, the cycle is closer to
33,000,
> NOT 40,000.
> He is so devoted to minute accuraccy that I do not know why he
makes
> this glaring error, each time that he writes about progressives.
>
>
> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:37:45 -0000, you wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but in BD's column
in
> >the March issue of Casino Player he discusses progressive VP, a
> >particular interest of mine. I thought it was pretty good. He
> >emphasizes how to determine the feed rate, plus a variety of
other
> >issues pertaining to progressives.
> >
> >Also, he mentions the need to use WinPoker "or another
analyzer".
> >So, to his credit, he's saying WinPoker is not the only software
> >available. But he didn't mention the others specifically. On
the
> >same page is a big ad for his two recent books, etc.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

[jim_becker]

Royal cycles of 40k 33k or whatever are only a estimate 'with proper
play of a certain strategy', I have personally seen two progressive
royals hit on the same banner board with one at $6725.24 and then
other hit just after that at $4000.57, the machines do not know when
they are supposed to hit a royal and less than 5 coin royals are part
of the total cycle, but that just increases the average value of the 5
coin progressive, since the person playing short coin cant get paid
the progressive value, but does add to the progressive. Personally I
love to see people playing short coin at progressive banks, all the
better for the knowedgable player.

Happy Royals
Jim

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "gilbert_616" <gilbert_616@y...> wrote:

Talk about Royal cycle -- especially on Progressives...
40,000 or 33,000 or whichever one is correct, does this change at
all if somehow someone playing 1-coin or 2-coin had (silently) hit
the Royal as the Progressive Jackpot keeps rolling up and up?

I've seen a $5 Progressive around $33,000 and someone hit the Royal
playing 1-coin. The next day, the jackpot was up to over $42,000
and new people playing keep thinking no one has hit the Royal yet.
How do you measure the Royal cycle in this scenario?

(The jackpot was finally hit around $50,000)

[brucem]

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jaydavidson118" <jaydavidson118@y...>
wrote:

Besides feed rate the key to finding high progressives, is finding
progresssives where a high percentage of the players play less than
max coins, they add to the progressive but have no chance of

claiming

it. The higher the denomenation the greater the percentage of

players

will play lesss than max. coins. This sometimes even makes sense

from

an ev point of view, I have seen situations where the $5 pay tables
are so much better than the $1 paytables, that a player who only
wants to bet $5 per hand is better off playing a single $5 bet

versus

a max $1 game, even with the royal short pay. Dollar ddb machines
are another good place to look for high progressives, many players
play these machines at $2 per hand loooking for the $800 aces plus
kicker. Remember a game where a higher percentage of the ev of the
games comes from the royal will be even more advantageous to play
when the progressives is high, assuming you hit the royal. Dancer

was

confused on this point in his Sam's town article, good thing he has
his software package to help him out.

That's an interesting point. In his article, BD described how to
compute the feed rate roughly as follows. Find a bank no one is
playing (usually when the progressive is close to reset), play
a few games, note how much the progressive changes, etc. But he did
not mention playing just 1 coin, instead of max coins. Since
the ONLY reason for playing is to determine the feedrate, why not
play just 1 coin to find out? You do run a risk of losing the RF,
but the odds are very very small. As you said, I'm pretty sure the
feed rate is constant, no matter how many coins are played.

[jim_becker]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's an interesting point. In his article, BD described how to
compute the feed rate roughly as follows. Find a bank no one is
playing (usually when the progressive is close to reset), play
a few games, note how much the progressive changes, etc. But he did
not mention playing just 1 coin, instead of max coins. Since
the ONLY reason for playing is to determine the feedrate, why not
play just 1 coin to find out? You do run a risk of losing the RF,
but the odds are very very small. As you said, I'm pretty sure the
feed rate is constant, no matter how many coins are played.

I have checked feed rates quite a bit, and usually they seem to be 1%
or some fairly even amount, there is a problem sometimes where there
seems to be a lag and you have to play really slow, and check quite a
few hands (not just 4 or 5). I believe we have one bank here that
progresses at either 3.66 cents per $5 or 3.75 cents either way it is
sometimes confusing as it jumps up funny due to rounding the fractions
of cents. Another option is to happen upon a single person playing and
check to see if they are consistantly playing the same amount of coins
and then just track thier hands played and the progressive value, then
it doesnt cost a penny.

Happy Royals
Jim

[Elliot_Frome]

My latest column in Gaming Today discussed the concept of Royal
Cycles and what that means.

For those so interested (hopefully this link works!)

http://www.gamingtoday.com/scasino_games.cfm?articleid=12466

Royal cycles of 40k 33k or whatever are only a estimate 'with

proper

play of a certain strategy', I have personally seen two progressive
royals hit on the same banner board with one at $6725.24 and then
other hit just after that at $4000.57, the machines do not know

when

they are supposed to hit a royal and less than 5 coin royals are

part

of the total cycle, but that just increases the average value of

the 5

coin progressive, since the person playing short coin cant get paid
the progressive value, but does add to the progressive.

Personally I

love to see people playing short coin at progressive banks, all the
better for the knowedgable player.

Happy Royals
Jim

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "gilbert_616" <gilbert_616@y...>

wrote:

>
> Talk about Royal cycle -- especially on Progressives...
> 40,000 or 33,000 or whichever one is correct, does this change

at

> all if somehow someone playing 1-coin or 2-coin had (silently)

hit

> the Royal as the Progressive Jackpot keeps rolling up and up?
>
> I've seen a $5 Progressive around $33,000 and someone hit the

Royal

> playing 1-coin. The next day, the jackpot was up to over

$42,000

> and new people playing keep thinking no one has hit the Royal

yet.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jimnkelli" <jbecker11@c...> wrote:

> How do you measure the Royal cycle in this scenario?
>
> (The jackpot was finally hit around $50,000)
>
>

[rgmustain]

The lowest progressive I've seen hit was $1000.04 on a quarter triple
play progressive. The bank of machines were quite busy which means
the royals hit on the same line only a second or two apart.

Dick

Royal cycles of 40k 33k or whatever are only a estimate 'with proper
play of a certain strategy', I have personally seen two progressive
royals hit on the same banner board with one at $6725.24 and then
other hit just after that at $4000.57, the machines do not know when
they are supposed to hit a royal and less than 5 coin royals are

part

of the total cycle, but that just increases the average value of

the 5

coin progressive, since the person playing short coin cant get paid
the progressive value, but does add to the progressive. Personally

I

love to see people playing short coin at progressive banks, all the
better for the knowedgable player.

Happy Royals
Jim

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "gilbert_616" <gilbert_616@y...>

wrote:

>
> Talk about Royal cycle -- especially on Progressives...
> 40,000 or 33,000 or whichever one is correct, does this change at
> all if somehow someone playing 1-coin or 2-coin had (silently)

hit

> the Royal as the Progressive Jackpot keeps rolling up and up?
>
> I've seen a $5 Progressive around $33,000 and someone hit the

Royal

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jimnkelli" <jbecker11@c...> wrote:

> playing 1-coin. The next day, the jackpot was up to over $42,000
> and new people playing keep thinking no one has hit the Royal yet.
> How do you measure the Royal cycle in this scenario?
>
> (The jackpot was finally hit around $50,000)
>
>

[Chandler1]

Would you not be making strategy changes based on the royal amount to
maximize er to compensate for and change that royal cycle? On progs I play
regularly I try to adjust strategy and I'm sure the royal cycle is shortened
due to those changes. We probably play the same progressive and make the
same changes;-) I have always considered ER over any royal cycle
considerations, though I have been willing to sacrifice a bit of ER for
lower volatility.

Chandler

···

-----Original Message-----
From: jaydavidson118 [mailto:jaydavidson…@…com]
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 11:57 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Bob Dance Article—where to look for high
progressives

Remember a game where a higher percentage of the ev of the
games comes from the royal will be even more advantageous to play
when the progressives is high, assuming you hit the royal. Dancer was
confused on this point in his Sam's town article, good thing he has
his software package to help him out.

[jaydavidson118]

Most of my play is not on progressives, and when I do play
progressives I only make very small changes to my strategy, probably
does not have a big impact on the royal cycle. I too am willing to
sacrifice er for lower volatility, I just find these games more
enjoyable...8-5 bonus is one of my favorites even though er is not
that great by vpfree standards. The varience in NSUD seems much
higher than is reported in software and strategy charts.

Would you not be making strategy changes based on the royal amount

to

maximize er to compensate for and change that royal cycle? On

progs I play

regularly I try to adjust strategy and I'm sure the royal cycle is

shortened

due to those changes. We probably play the same progressive and

make the

same changes;-) I have always considered ER over any royal cycle
considerations, though I have been willing to sacrifice a bit of ER

for

lower volatility.

Chandler

From: jaydavidson118 [mailto:jaydavidson118@y…]
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 11:57 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Bob Dance Article—where to look for high
progressives

Remember a game where a higher percentage of the ev of the
games comes from the royal will be even more advantageous to play
when the progressives is high, assuming you hit the royal. Dancer

was

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Chandler" <omnibibulous1@c...> wrote:

-----Original Message-----
confused on this point in his Sam's town article, good thing he has
his software package to help him out.