vpFREE2 Forums

"BIG teams became extinct due to IRS pressure"

#1

6e. Re: "BIG teams became extinct due to IRS pressure"

....

Now here's the question: will even one person intending to
break the law in a casino now refrain because of the
knowledge that it could hurt more than just themselves...I
doubt it.

You are certain to be correct -- I recently played in a World Series of Poker circuit event where one of the travelling dealers and some of the players at the table were discussing taxes, and made it quite clear that income without paper work (W2, W2G, 1099, that pretty much forces you to file), is, in their opinion, not "reportable". Poker dealers are paid in casino chips (in this tournament series); players in cash games don't generate paperwork either when they win. Players and dealers in this discussion, and in others I've heard, hold this view very widely.

Of course, all income, including gambling income, is reportable.

You also see posts here quite regularly about the same attitude.

What surprises me is that people are willing to state this in front of absolute strangers. One of my best friends used to work for the IRS (in collections, not audit) and also played a lot of poker and VP, and I know from him that there are a few other IRS employees that play in casinos (they don't make themselves known as such, not because they're looking for tax cheats, but because no one likes them very well once they know who the boss is). My friend would never have reported anyone, but it makes a point -- and people forget that those who report tax cheats can get a reward based on collected taxes. Why admit you don't pay what you should in front of strangers???

Yes, taxes suck. Yes, they take a lot of the fun (and probably all of the profit) out of playing marginally player-favorable games. While there are some legitimate areas of dispute (such as how to calculate a "session"), none of that changes the tax law as far as reporting income. INTENTIONALLY not reporting income is a potential criminal (translate: jail) offense. If you think you're not a big enough fish for them to go after, remember there is more than just you, and the IRS periodically picks a group of people in some arena (casino dealers, those with household employees, all kinds) to intimidate into compliance by taking on a few individuals (or just one) to tackle hard and visibly in order to scare others into compliance.

So tax cheats, proceed at your own risk.

--BG

···

==================

#2

Oh please. EVERYONE who gets paid in cash "cheats". Everyone. They don't have enough jails in the galaxy to lock everyone up.
El Cortez used to have drawings for $1199, which they announced with "The Winner Keeps It All".
The only people who doubt this are those who blithely proclaim "VP machines can never be gaffed".
Shhhh...don't tell American Coin!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Barry Glazer <b.glazer@...> wrote:

> 6e. Re: "BIG teams became extinct due to IRS pressure"
>
....

>
> Now here's the question: will even one person intending to
> break the law in a casino now refrain because of the
> knowledge that it could hurt more than just themselves...I
> doubt it.
>

You are certain to be correct -- I recently played in a World Series of Poker circuit event where one of the travelling dealers and some of the players at the table were discussing taxes, and made it quite clear that income without paper work (W2, W2G, 1099, that pretty much forces you to file), is, in their opinion, not "reportable". Poker dealers are paid in casino chips (in this tournament series); players in cash games don't generate paperwork either when they win. Players and dealers in this discussion, and in others I've heard, hold this view very widely.

Of course, all income, including gambling income, is reportable.

You also see posts here quite regularly about the same attitude.

What surprises me is that people are willing to state this in front of absolute strangers. One of my best friends used to work for the IRS (in collections, not audit) and also played a lot of poker and VP, and I know from him that there are a few other IRS employees that play in casinos (they don't make themselves known as such, not because they're looking for tax cheats, but because no one likes them very well once they know who the boss is). My friend would never have reported anyone, but it makes a point -- and people forget that those who report tax cheats can get a reward based on collected taxes. Why admit you don't pay what you should in front of strangers???

Yes, taxes suck. Yes, they take a lot of the fun (and probably all of the profit) out of playing marginally player-favorable games. While there are some legitimate areas of dispute (such as how to calculate a "session"), none of that changes the tax law as far as reporting income. INTENTIONALLY not reporting income is a potential criminal (translate: jail) offense. If you think you're not a big enough fish for them to go after, remember there is more than just you, and the IRS periodically picks a group of people in some arena (casino dealers, those with household employees, all kinds) to intimidate into compliance by taking on a few individuals (or just one) to tackle hard and visibly in order to scare others into compliance.

So tax cheats, proceed at your own risk.

--BG

#3

You are certain to be correct -- I recently played in a World Series of

Poker circuit event where one of the travelling dealers and some of the
players at the table were discussing taxes, and made it quite clear that
income without paper work (W2, W2G, 1099, that pretty much forces you to
file), is, in their opinion, not "reportable".

Many years ago, soon after I started playing VP, I hit a .25 JOB progressive
for something like $1190. It was a hand pay but of course no W2G. The
woman who paid said, "Wow, you were lucky to hit it before you had to pay
tax". I of course replied, "It's still taxable, I just don't get the
W2G." After a little mild disagreement, I just walked away wondering how
many others she had told the same wrong information.

···

  
--
Jack

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2. Instead of forwarding email, cut and paste the text or edit to remove
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3. For group emails, use the "bcc:" (Blind Carbon Copy) field instead of
"to:".
(Put your own address or a fake address in the "to:" field).
4. Want to do more? Attach this text as a custom signature to the bottom of
all your outgoing email.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#4

In regards to Mike's post EVERYONE who gets paid in cash "cheats", I consider myself a subset of "EVERYONE".
Last year I won $125 at a video poker tournament. No paperwork, W2G, or Misc income form. I was paid in cash.
I reported the $125 as a contest win on my taxes. I am worried however about video poker machines that are not honest.
I keep hearing stories. Can someone clear this for me?

···

-----Original Message-----
From: mike <melbedewy1226@hotmail.com>
To: vpFREE <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Mar 4, 2011 10:45 am
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: "BIG teams became extinct due to IRS pressure"

Oh please. EVERYONE who gets paid in cash "cheats". Everyone. They don't have enough jails in the galaxy to lock everyone up.
El Cortez used to have drawings for $1199, which they announced with "The Winner Keeps It All".
The only people who doubt this are those who blithely proclaim "VP machines can never be gaffed".
Shhhh...don't tell American Coin!

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Barry Glazer <b.glazer@...> wrote:

> 6e. Re: "BIG teams became extinct due to IRS pressure"
>
....

>
> Now here's the question: will even one person intending to
> break the law in a casino now refrain because of the
> knowledge that it could hurt more than just themselves...I
> doubt it.
>

You are certain to be correct -- I recently played in a World Series of Poker circuit event where one of the travelling dealers and some of the players at the table were discussing taxes, and made it quite clear that income without paper work (W2, W2G, 1099, that pretty much forces you to file), is, in their opinion, not "reportable". Poker dealers are paid in casino chips (in this tournament series); players in cash games don't generate paperwork either when they win. Players and dealers in this discussion, and in others I've heard, hold this view very widely.

Of course, all income, including gambling income, is reportable.

You also see posts here quite regularly about the same attitude.

What surprises me is that people are willing to state this in front of absolute strangers. One of my best friends used to work for the IRS (in collections, not audit) and also played a lot of poker and VP, and I know from him that there are a few other IRS employees that play in casinos (they don't make themselves known as such, not because they're looking for tax cheats, but because no one likes them very well once they know who the boss is). My friend would never have reported anyone, but it makes a point -- and people forget that those who report tax cheats can get a reward based on collected taxes. Why admit you don't pay what you should in front of strangers???

Yes, taxes suck. Yes, they take a lot of the fun (and probably all of the profit) out of playing marginally player-favorable games. While there are some legitimate areas of dispute (such as how to calculate a "session"), none of that changes the tax law as far as reporting income. INTENTIONALLY not reporting income is a potential criminal (translate: jail) offense. If you think you're not a big enough fish for them to go after, remember there is more than just you, and the IRS periodically picks a group of people in some arena (casino dealers, those with household employees, all kinds) to intimidate into compliance by taking on a few individuals (or just one) to tackle hard and visibly in order to scare others into compliance.

So tax cheats, proceed at your own risk.

--BG

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#5

Answer Part 1
Well I'm sure when he said, "everyone", he meant "everyone I know". It's called availability bias. Basically it's people's general inability to see beyond their own personal experience, or understand how limited a single life is in the grand scheme of things. It's normal and nothing to be ashamed of. We all do it, myself included.

Answer Part 2
As to your second question about the honesty of machines. You asked, "Can someone clear this for me?". Well no, if we have learned anything from my answer to part 1. I can tell you of my own limited personal experience, but I certainly haven't played every machine in every casino and applied the Chi Square test to an appropriate sample size.

So here's my answer take it for what it is. In the 21 long years I've been in gaming I've been personally privy to one instance of non-random machines. As you may know I was manager of a large VP team and have a fairly large sample size. It occurred at the old Silver Slipper. The machines were reported to Gaming Control, they sent out a tech and removed them the next day. A lot of people lost their jobs and the company that had made them went out of business.

Other than that one instance, I've never seen anything to keep me up at nights about the fairness of machines in Nevada in general. Keep in mind a single person playing non-stop for a year can make no certain assumptions about anything based on their results. You need millions of hands to even have a glimmer of certainty. That used to be about a week of action for the team.

~FK

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Nordo123@... wrote: In regards to Mike's post EVERYONE who gets paid in cash "cheats", I consider myself a subset of "EVERYONE". Last year I won $125 at a video poker tournament. No paperwork, W2G, or Misc income form. I was paid in cash. I reported the $125 as a contest win on my taxes. I am worried however about video poker machines that are not honest. I keep hearing stories. Can someone clear this for me?

#6

Frank,

Your posts are always entertaining and I am looking forward to reading your book because I have that availability bias thing from reading your posts.

However. I would not claim to know that a poster meant "everyone he knows" instead of "EVERYONE." Actually there are a number of possibilites for what the poster is really saying. He may not know anyone who has admitted not reporting taxable income, but his opinion of human nature is that everyone (100%) will underreport or not report cash income if they believe they can get away with it. He may mean 99% and is just rounding up to 100%.

Many people apply a different morality to "cheating" involving taxes, insurance, big corporations, etc. There is another morality for those playing sports where cheating is actually secretly and not so secretly admired by many. I have been told that if I am not willing to cheat then I really don't have the neccesary desire to win.

Chris

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

Answer Part 1
Well I'm sure when he said, "everyone", he meant "everyone I know". It's called availability bias. Basically it's people's general inability to see beyond their own personal experience, or understand how limited a single life is in the grand scheme of things. It's normal and nothing to be ashamed of. We all do it, myself included.

Answer Part 2
As to your second question about the honesty of machines. You asked, "Can someone clear this for me?". Well no, if we have learned anything from my answer to part 1. I can tell you of my own limited personal experience, but I certainly haven't played every machine in every casino and applied the Chi Square test to an appropriate sample size.

So here's my answer take it for what it is. In the 21 long years I've been in gaming I've been personally privy to one instance of non-random machines. As you may know I was manager of a large VP team and have a fairly large sample size. It occurred at the old Silver Slipper. The machines were reported to Gaming Control, they sent out a tech and removed them the next day. A lot of people lost their jobs and the company that had made them went out of business.

Other than that one instance, I've never seen anything to keep me up at nights about the fairness of machines in Nevada in general. Keep in mind a single person playing non-stop for a year can make no certain assumptions about anything based on their results. You need millions of hands to even have a glimmer of certainty. That used to be about a week of action for the team.

~FK

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Nordo123@ wrote: In regards to Mike's post EVERYONE who gets paid in cash "cheats", I consider myself a subset of "EVERYONE". Last year I won $125 at a video poker tournament. No paperwork, W2G, or Misc income form. I was paid in cash. I reported the $125 as a contest win on my taxes. I am worried however about video poker machines that are not honest. I keep hearing stories. Can someone clear this for me?

#7

On the other hand, you could have the desire to win...
Without cheating.

That's my bag, anyway.

···

--- On Sat, 3/5/11, kcace1024 <cy4873@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: kcace1024 <cy4873@hotmail.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: "BIG teams became extinct due to IRS pressure"
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, March 5, 2011, 9:36 PM

Frank,

Your posts are always entertaining and I am looking forward to reading your book because I have that availability bias thing from reading your posts.

However. I would not claim to know that a poster meant "everyone he knows" instead of "EVERYONE." Actually there are a number of possibilites for what the poster is really saying. He may not know anyone who has admitted not reporting taxable income, but his opinion of human nature is that everyone (100%) will underreport or not report cash income if they believe they can get away with it. He may mean 99% and is just rounding up to 100%.

Many people apply a different morality to "cheating" involving taxes, insurance, big corporations, etc. There is another morality for those playing sports where cheating is actually secretly and not so secretly admired by many. I have been told that if I am not willing to cheat then I really don't have the neccesary desire to win.

Chris

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

Answer Part 1
Well I'm sure when he said, "everyone", he meant "everyone I know". It's called availability bias. Basically it's people's general inability to see beyond their own personal experience, or understand how limited a single life is in the grand scheme of things. It's normal and nothing to be ashamed of. We all do it, myself included.

Answer Part 2
As to your second question about the honesty of machines. You asked, "Can someone clear this for me?". Well no, if we have learned anything from my answer to part 1. I can tell you of my own limited personal experience, but I certainly haven't played every machine in every casino and applied the Chi Square test to an appropriate sample size.

So here's my answer take it for what it is. In the 21 long years I've been in gaming I've been personally privy to one instance of non-random machines. As you may know I was manager of a large VP team and have a fairly large sample size. It occurred at the old Silver Slipper. The machines were reported to Gaming Control, they sent out a tech and removed them the next day. A lot of people lost their jobs and the company that had made them went out of business.

Other than that one instance, I've never seen anything to keep me up at nights about the fairness of machines in Nevada in general. Keep in mind a single person playing non-stop for a year can make no certain assumptions about anything based on their results. You need millions of hands to even have a glimmer of certainty. That used to be about a week of action for the team.

~FK

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Nordo123@ wrote: In regards to Mike's post EVERYONE who gets paid in cash "cheats", I consider myself a subset of "EVERYONE". Last year I won $125 at a video poker tournament. No paperwork, W2G, or Misc income form. I was paid in cash. I reported the $125 as a contest win on my taxes. I am worried however about video poker machines that are not honest. I keep hearing stories. Can someone clear this for me?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#8

Bruce,

Of course I have the desire to win without cheating, but let's dicuss how you would handle a real life situation. You are closely matched with an opponent, but you know your opponent is cheating and you know that unless you cheat to level the playing field you will lose. Do you cheat or just accept defeat. When you know you can beat someone even if they cheat and you don't, they probably know it too and there is no payoff for cheating.

Chris

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Cohen <brucedcohen2002@...> wrote:

On the other hand, you could have the desire to win...
Without cheating.
Â
That's my bag, anyway.

--- On Sat, 3/5/11, kcace1024 <cy4873@...> wrote:

From: kcace1024 <cy4873@...>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: "BIG teams became extinct due to IRS pressure"
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, March 5, 2011, 9:36 PM

Â

Frank,

Your posts are always entertaining and I am looking forward to reading your book because I have that availability bias thing from reading your posts.

However. I would not claim to know that a poster meant "everyone he knows" instead of "EVERYONE." Actually there are a number of possibilites for what the poster is really saying. He may not know anyone who has admitted not reporting taxable income, but his opinion of human nature is that everyone (100%) will underreport or not report cash income if they believe they can get away with it. He may mean 99% and is just rounding up to 100%.

Many people apply a different morality to "cheating" involving taxes, insurance, big corporations, etc. There is another morality for those playing sports where cheating is actually secretly and not so secretly admired by many. I have been told that if I am not willing to cheat then I really don't have the neccesary desire to win.

Chris

#9

I've got a better one.
You're a twice a year casino goer who just plays quarters, pretty much breaking even. You hit for a $1000 royal. No hand pay. No paperwork. In fact you don't even use a players card.
How many of you are putting this under miscellaneous income on your 1040 next year and giving Nobama and Jerry Brown half of it?
Raise your hands now.....

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kcace1024" <cy4873@...> wrote:

Bruce,

Of course I have the desire to win without cheating, but let's dicuss how you would handle a real life situation. You are closely matched with an opponent, but you know your opponent is cheating and you know that unless you cheat to level the playing field you will lose. Do you cheat or just accept defeat. When you know you can beat someone even if they cheat and you don't, they probably know it too and there is no payoff for cheating.

Chris

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Cohen <brucedcohen2002@> wrote:
>
> On the other hand, you could have the desire to win...
> Without cheating.
> Â
> That's my bag, anyway.
>
> --- On Sat, 3/5/11, kcace1024 <cy4873@> wrote:
>
>
> From: kcace1024 <cy4873@>
> Subject: [vpFREE] Re: "BIG teams became extinct due to IRS pressure"
> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, March 5, 2011, 9:36 PM
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> Frank,
>
> Your posts are always entertaining and I am looking forward to reading your book because I have that availability bias thing from reading your posts.
>
> However. I would not claim to know that a poster meant "everyone he knows" instead of "EVERYONE." Actually there are a number of possibilites for what the poster is really saying. He may not know anyone who has admitted not reporting taxable income, but his opinion of human nature is that everyone (100%) will underreport or not report cash income if they believe they can get away with it. He may mean 99% and is just rounding up to 100%.
>
> Many people apply a different morality to "cheating" involving taxes, insurance, big corporations, etc. There is another morality for those playing sports where cheating is actually secretly and not so secretly admired by many. I have been told that if I am not willing to cheat then I really don't have the neccesary desire to win.
>
> Chris
>
>

#10

I would, but it usually cost me $5000 to hit it and since I work, Nobama and my Governor won't give me any welfare checks I can cash in casinos!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mike" <melbedewy1226@...> wrote:

I've got a better one.
You're a twice a year casino goer who just plays quarters, pretty much breaking even. You hit for a $1000 royal. No hand pay. No paperwork. In fact you don't even use a players card.
How many of you are putting this under miscellaneous income on your 1040 next year and giving Nobama and Jerry Brown half of it?
Raise your hands now.....

#11

Mike, why is $1000 a magical number? What if I hit a $500 super aces hand? If I'm supposed to put the royal hit on misc income, I guess I should put the Super Aces hit there, too. How about aces in Double Bonus? Should I put the $200 under misc income? By that reasoning, a full house or a flush or even a high pair. That's where the IRS method falls apart. A $1200 hit ( with paper work) is treated differently that a $1000 hit ( no paperwork). Without the w2, I can probably do a daily session for wins and losses. With a W2, I should claim the w2 as a win ( including the amount of my wager, which is ridiculous) or I'll probably get a note from the IRS.

It makes it hard to figure out when a win or a session isn't clearly defined.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mike" <melbedewy1226@...> wrote:

I've got a better one.
You're a twice a year casino goer who just plays quarters, pretty much breaking even. You hit for a $1000 royal. No hand pay. No paperwork. In fact you don't even use a players card.
How many of you are putting this under miscellaneous income on your 1040 next year and giving Nobama and Jerry Brown half of it?
Raise your hands now.....