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Best VP software?

What I thought it was lazy is that Wong VP did the calculations quickly
even on an 086 more than 5 years earlier. (It allowed variable pays on
three of a kind that neither Winpoker or Frugal do and also was better for
progressive analysis than Winpoker 5. Winpoker 6 corrected a shortcoming
here.) Like you, I like to be able to take a chart and correct the close
plays by analyzing them on a calculating program. (I used Wong ten years
ago (Analyzed 10-7DB progressive as it was available in the Chicago Area),
now I use Winpoker 6.05 for that purpose.) Right now I am looking at the
highly volatile Triple Deuces (99.9226%) which were just installed at my
home casino in the Chicago Area. There are enough comps to make it a
positive play for the recreational 25c player like myself (There are a few
slightly better plays at this casino). So far I noticed that VPSM ignored
the two deuce four RF which is played if Q or J high.

···

[Original Message]
From: Bob Dancer <bob.dancer@compdance.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 11/1/2005 10:00:01 AM
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Best VP software?

        The Masque software has a preprogrammed strategy --- and it
judges your play against the strategy, not against perfect play.
(WinPoker, which does not have a strategy-creation component, judges
your play against perfect play --- FVP can be set to judge it against
either.)

        If you limit yourself to Jacks or Better for modest stakes, it
probably doesn't matter --- assuming you don't want perfection for
perfection's sake. Penalty cards are few in number in that game and not
very expensive if they are ignored. But in most other games, the cost of
ignoring penalty cards is quite a bit higher.

        Howard judged Masque's inability to change pay tables as lazy
programming. This is probably not fair as including strategies changes
the ground rules. There is a HUGE difference between providing
strategies for a fixed number of games and creating a strategy-maker for
an essentially-unlimited number of pay schedules. Tomski came up with
one strategy-maker version (which had its problems), Jim Wolf (FVP) came
up with another (which has a different set of problems), and I'm on a
team developing another (we've got our own problems). It is a big
project --- fraught with tradeoffs. Each of these programs will have
different outputs --- partly notation, and partly the way each chooses
to group combinations. Anyone who argues that one particular
penalty-free strategy-maker is always "best" is not being accurate.
"Best" is an elusive criteria, (even defining what is allowed and not
allowed in a penalty-free strategy is up for debate) and every
strategy-maker is forced to make numerous choices between accuracy and
usability.

        It is possible to create a more accurate penalty-free strategy
for 9/6 Jacks (one of the simplest games) than any currently created by
software. (I saw a version of it on a card created by Jazbo eight or
nine years ago). The type of hand that gives strategy-card makers
trouble is combining an inside straight with 3 high cards with a 3-card
straight flush with two gaps and 1 high card. Like AK"QT8" versus
AJ"QT8", where you go for "QT8" in the first case but not the second.
You CAN list each of the SF3s separately and each of the inside
straights separately (which is what Jazbo does) and get a 100%-accurate
penalty-free strategy in this area. FVP and VPSM do not do this (nor do
Liam W. Daily and myself on our Level 3 (penalty free) strategy nor will
the new program coming out early next year), but it CAN be done. Daily
and I (and I presume Jim Wolf --- I wasn't there) made the judgement
call that the extra precision made by a more accurate penalty-free
strategy was far more confusing than it was worth.

        But if you move to Double Joker, a higher-returning game than
9/6 Jacks and found in AC, you need a stronger product than Masque to
get close. The joker mid-card holds or even when you hold a ten by
itself are very complicated and highly dependent on the other cards in
the hand. Even a good penalty-free strategy for this game costs you
about one coin per hour (that is $1 per hour for a dollar player or 25
cents per hour for a quarter player) (and I'm not certain that Masque
even covers this game or how good its strategy is if it does --- Joker
Wild games are tough). This is not a criticism of the strategy-making
component --- merely a testament to the difficulty of the game. Is that
an acceptable cost to you? It wouldn't be for me, although others view
it differently.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Wong's vp software was the first I ever used. I worked out my
first strategies using it.

        It had strengths, but many shortcomings. For example, in Deuces
Wild games you had to have the flush and straight return the same
amount. Which is fine on FPDW, but not fine for many other games. If you
wanted the return on a game, you had to order another product (VP EXACT
--- I think), and it would take 4 or 5 hours to come up with a 99.544%
figure for 9/6 Jacks --- with no other statistics provided. It wasn't
simple to analyze a hand, and the results were displayed alphabetically
rather than in numeric sequence, so you had to hunt to find which one
was highest.

        I was working for Wong at the time doing monthly surveys for his
Current Blackjack News, we became friends, and he visited sometimes with
me on his trips to Vegas. When I finally obtained VP Tutor and showed it
to him (including all of the features I liked that Wong's vp was
missing), he spent about three minutes looking at it and came to the
correct conclusion: "This product is far superior to mine." I think he
later sold VPT on his website.

        Every video poker writer/programmer stands on the shoulders of
those who have gone before. Wong had pretty broad shoulders ---
intellectually speaking. Wong's written work on video poker
("Professional Video Poker") deals only with 8/5 Jacks or Better
Progressive. It is probably not in the top ten games on most video poker
players lists today, but when the book came out it was the most accurate
available. His software seems woefully out-of-date now, but it was the
first one. And it provided far better information than anything else
available at the time.

        When I get questions from people wanting to know how to play in
a video poker tournament, I recommend Wong's book "Casino Tournament
Strategy" --- even though it doesn't mention video poker at all. It's
not easy going, but people who understand what he's written there will
do better than those who don't.

        It's not a surprise to me that Wong belongs in Halls of Fame for
both video poker and blackjack. If there is ever a Pai Gow Poker or a
tournament hall of fame, he well might end up there too.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi, all.

I'm gathering information for a friend who will be playing in his fist
VP tournament, at the Rio end of November. I'll be ordering
Wong's "Casino Tournament Strategy" and I've read Bob's article linked
to in the FAQ. Sounds like there is quite a bit to keep in mind.

Anyone have any further insights, anecdotes, to share on this topic?

Thanks!

Naomi

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@c...> wrote:

        Wong's vp software was the first I ever used. I worked out my
first strategies using it.

<snip>

-Hey Bob

Gee,I don't remember having to get that VP EXACT to analyze a game. I
do remember taking a few hours to get answer. My software was a "Villa
Crespo" software and was at least sold by Wong. I still had game on an
old Packard Bell that died a few months ago. I am just wondering now if
my software was Wongs? I really liked the way it played. The sound was
different but I liked sound. There was even a tournament mode if I
remember right.

Cheers...Jeep
.

        Wong's vp software was the first I ever used. I worked out my
first strategies using it.

        It had strengths, but many shortcomings. For example, in

Deuces

Wild games you had to have the flush and straight return the same
amount. Which is fine on FPDW, but not fine for many other games. If

you

wanted the return on a game, you had to order another product (VP

EXACT

--- I think), and it would take 4 or 5 hours to come up with a 99.544%
figure for 9/6 Jacks --- with no other statistics provided. It wasn't
simple to analyze a hand, and the results were displayed

alphabetically

···

.-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@c...> wrote:

rather than in numeric sequence,

whitejeeps wrote:

Gee,I don't remember having to get that VP EXACT to analyze a game.
I do remember taking a few hours to get answer. My software was a
"Villa Crespo" software and was at least sold by Wong. I still had
game on an old Packard Bell that died a few months ago. I am just
wondering now if my software was Wongs?

The Villa Crespo released program is "Stanford Wong Video Poker". I
continue to migrate the software from PC to PC out of a sense of
nostalgia (the actual disk has long since become true "vaporware" ;).

This program didn't do a definitive game return analysis. It would
track actual return for a simulation, based upon a user specified
number of randomly generated hands. If you allowed it time to do a
run of a few million hands, odds are that the result would reasonably
approximate the ER of the game you were looking at (just as we expect
our play will).

VP EXACT was designed to specifically generate all possible hands in
play, determine the highest expectation hold for each, and from that
calculate actual ER when a game was played with precision.

We've come a long way, eh?

- H.

Wong may belong in the sports betting hall of fame too!I had an
interesting phone conversation with Wong about 18 months ago
and he mentioned his new book. He thought it was the best sports
betting book available, but it was selling very poorly. He thought
most sports betters simply don't want to do the work necessary to
do better ... they just want to bet their favorite teams, or make hunch
bets. Since I don't do much sports betting I didn't buy it, but those
readers who do might want to check it out.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@c...> wrote:

It's not a surprise to me that Wong belongs in Halls of Fame for
both video poker and blackjack. If there is ever a Pai Gow Poker or a
tournament hall of fame, he well might end up there too.