vpFREE2 Forums

Belterra, Indiana Cashback Ripoff

#1

Belterra ran a 9X Cashback promotion on a recent weekend for their upper tier players. Their existing cashback rate on video poker currently varies from about .0625% to .03% ($16-30 coin-in per point). In the past, Belterra has reduced their cashback by increasing the coin-in required to earn one point. One point earned has always been worth one cent in cashback.

However, for the 9X Cashback promotion, Belterra reduced the value of one point to less than one-third of a cent in cashback. So what Belterra promoted as a 9X Cashback promotion was in reality about a 2.5X Cashback promotion.

It seems, at the very least, unethical for the management at what is generally a nice property to employ such sleazy and misleading tactics aimed specifically at their most loyal customers.

FWIW, some of you who participated in Belterra's recent promotion may want to check the cashback you supposedly earned.

In the future, I will be extremely cautious in taking the management of Belterra at their word.

Dan

#2

Dan,
  I agree with you. In AC some casinos were doing the same thing. Trump Taj might still be guilty of this, but they get around it by writing a disclaimer on the bottom of the promo which states that management reserves the right to determine on a daily basis the rate of CB( or something to that effect). Years ago when I played at Caesars AC I ran into the same problem. I believe that they got so many complaints that they and other HET AC casinos stopped multiple CB days and now either give bonus vouchers or use the multiple comp day as their main promo. I have found that HET AC multiple comp days are "honest."

Larry F.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "sechkardan" <sechkar@...> wrote:

Belterra ran a 9X Cashback promotion on a recent weekend for their upper tier players. > However, for the 9X Cashback promotion, Belterra reduced the value of one point to less than one-third of a cent in cashback. So what Belterra promoted as a 9X Cashback promotion was in reality about a 2.5X Cashback promotion.

It seems, at the very least, unethical for the management at what is generally a nice property to employ such sleazy and misleading tactics aimed specifically at their most loyal customers.

#3

Belterra hasn't wanted VP players for about 2 years now. I would highly recommend playing elsewhere. Grand Vic is much better play and more importantly they WANT you there.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "sechkardan" <sechkar@...> wrote:

Belterra ran a 9X Cashback promotion on a recent weekend for their upper tier players. Their existing cashback rate on video poker currently varies from about .0625% to .03% ($16-30 coin-in per point). In the past, Belterra has reduced their cashback by increasing the coin-in required to earn one point. One point earned has always been worth one cent in cashback.

However, for the 9X Cashback promotion, Belterra reduced the value of one point to less than one-third of a cent in cashback. So what Belterra promoted as a 9X Cashback promotion was in reality about a 2.5X Cashback promotion.

It seems, at the very least, unethical for the management at what is generally a nice property to employ such sleazy and misleading tactics aimed specifically at their most loyal customers.

FWIW, some of you who participated in Belterra's recent promotion may want to check the cashback you supposedly earned.

In the future, I will be extremely cautious in taking the management of Belterra at their word.

Dan

#4

Well, your only other option would be to exclude video poker from the promo. Or, what Belterra has done in the past, which would be to restrict the accounts of the more successful players.

At another Pinnacle casino a couple of years ago, they ran a 10x promotion, video poker included, and absolutely, positively got smoked. At this particular casino, they haven't run a point multiplier since.

Now, as for the Pinnacle folks, they will always be Casino Tragic to me (fka Casino Magic); a program based almost 100% on loss is flawed to me-"well you won, so we can't comp your meal", but many of their properties have good VP, and that's about it. You get the machine and very little else.

Here's the current reality of video poker; the casinos have seen holds slowly diminish on their vp product, when offering the higher paying programs. As more and more people learn how to play, because of all the information out there that's available to those who want to learn how to play correctly, the holds will continue to decrease to the point where it's almost not profitable to offer those pay schedules anymore.

Now, as you know, the writers I generally hold in disdain, but at the same time, the casinos are running a for-profit business, and if you got to the party 5, 10, 15 years too late, well, whose fault is that?

Much of it is the economy, but I am seeing weasel factor these days from almost every business I deal with, from the landscaper at my house, to my repair shop for my car, and so forth. Casinos are no different.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "sechkardan" <sechkar@...> wrote:

Belterra ran a 9X Cashback promotion on a recent weekend for their upper tier players. Their existing cashback rate on video poker currently varies from about .0625% to .03% ($16-30 coin-in per point). In the past, Belterra has reduced their cashback by increasing the coin-in required to earn one point. One point earned has always been worth one cent in cashback.

However, for the 9X Cashback promotion, Belterra reduced the value of one point to less than one-third of a cent in cashback. So what Belterra promoted as a 9X Cashback promotion was in reality about a 2.5X Cashback promotion.

It seems, at the very least, unethical for the management at what is generally a nice property to employ such sleazy and misleading tactics aimed specifically at their most loyal customers.

FWIW, some of you who participated in Belterra's recent promotion may want to check the cashback you supposedly earned.

In the future, I will be extremely cautious in taking the management of Belterra at their word.

Dan

#5

<snip>

Much of it is the economy, but I am seeing weasel factor these days from almost every business I deal with, from the landscaper at my house, to my repair shop for my car, and so forth. Casinos are no different.

Ha! "weasel factor", that's funny. I get a kick out of some of the things you post. Plus, you seem to know something about every casino in the nation. Dude, when are you going to write a book? (uhh, I know the answer to that, when the lemon is squeezed completely dry, 5 years after that, then you'll write a book).

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "WP SF" <paladingamingllc@...> wrote:

#6

Writing is for poseurs. That's kind of the problem with video poker. The money used to be so easy, even poseurs would find over $100K/yr on the floor. Not anymore.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "WP SF" <paladingamingllc@> wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> Much of it is the economy, but I am seeing weasel factor these days from almost every business I deal with, from the landscaper at my house, to my repair shop for my car, and so forth. Casinos are no different.
>

Ha! "weasel factor", that's funny. I get a kick out of some of the things you post. Plus, you seem to know something about every casino in the nation. Dude, when are you going to write a book? (uhh, I know the answer to that, when the lemon is squeezed completely dry, 5 years after that, then you'll write a book).

#7

Larry,
I've followed some of those AC discussions on acvpp. The fine print on the Belterra promo postcard states "See mychoice center for details," and "Management reserves the right to cancel or modify this promotion with prior written notification and approval from IGC." I didn't receive any prior written notification, but I suppose I should have done due diligence and seen the mychoice center for details. Unfortunately, the last time I asked for the written rules to a Belterra promotion at the mychoice center I was told that there were no written rules.

I would have been fine if Belterra had been honest and transparent about the terms of this promotion, but I guess I was expecting too much.
Dan

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "sechkardan" <sechkar@> wrote:
>
> It seems, at the very least, unethical for the management at what is generally a nice property to employ such sleazy and misleading tactics aimed specifically at their most loyal customers.

Dan,
  I agree with you. In AC some casinos were doing the same thing. Trump Taj might still be guilty of this, but they get around it by writing a disclaimer on the bottom of the promo which states that management reserves the right to determine on a daily basis the rate of CB( or something to that effect).> Larry F.

#8

Paladin,

First I want to take this opportunity to ask a burning question: Is your pseudonym an allusion to the fierce warriors of Charlemagne or are you really the ghost of Richard Boone?

Although I may not have been very clear in my original post regarding Belterra's misleading cashback ripoff, I am not complaining that I came to the vp party late. My complaint is that Belterra was so unethical on this "9X Cashback" promotion. I would have been fine if the promotion had been "2X Cashback" which would have been closer to the truth, or even if there had been no promotion.

I won't pretend to understand the thinking of others, but why would management of a nice property target their upper tier players for what was basically a scam?

Dan

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "WP SF" <paladingamingllc@...> wrote:

Well, your only other option would be to exclude video poker from the promo. Or, what Belterra has done in the past, which would be to restrict the accounts of the more successful players.

Here's the current reality of video poker; the casinos have seen holds slowly diminish on their vp product, when offering the higher paying programs. As more and more people learn how to play, because of all the information out there that's available to those who want to learn how to play correctly, the holds will continue to decrease to the point where it's almost not profitable to offer those pay schedules anymore.

Now, as you know, the writers I generally hold in disdain, but at the same time, the casinos are running a for-profit business, and if you got to the party 5, 10, 15 years too late, well, whose fault is that?
>
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "sechkardan" <sechkar@> wrote:
> It seems, at the very least, unethical for the management at what is generally a nice property to employ such sleazy and misleading tactics aimed specifically at their most loyal customers.
> Dan
>

#9

Dan,
I think he takes Paladin from the World of Warcraft: "The paladin is a "warrior of the Holy Light". They uphold all that is good and true in the world and revile all that is evil and sinister —
www.wowwiki.com/Paladin

Or this one:
"Disenfranchised and driven from their former homes, the Paladins still work selflessly to protect humanity from the gnawing jaws of evil. Empowered by the Light, these mighty warriors brandish both warhammer and holy fire in battle against all who would trample the meek and innocent."
www.wowwiki.com/Paladin_(Warcraft_III)

But the ghost of Richard Boone is the best (I grew up on those shows).
"Poseurs" - that's just too much!

Dan, Don't take Paldin's late to the party thing too much to heart. He (or She?) is just lamenting THE most awesome VP advantage gambling years. Times have changed. "Weasel" factor - Just Great Stuff :slight_smile:
Dave

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "sechkardan" <sechkar@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "WP SF" <paladingamingllc@> wrote:
>
> Well, your only other option would be to exclude video poker from the promo. Or, what Belterra has done in the past, which would be to restrict the accounts of the more successful players.
>>
> Here's the current reality of video poker; the casinos have seen holds slowly diminish on their vp product, when offering the higher paying programs. As more and more people learn how to play, because of all the information out there that's available to those who want to learn how to play correctly, the holds will continue to decrease to the point where it's almost not profitable to offer those pay schedules anymore.
>
> Now, as you know, the writers I generally hold in disdain, but at the same time, the casinos are running a for-profit business, and if you got to the party 5, 10, 15 years too late, well, whose fault is that?
> >
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "sechkardan" <sechkar@> wrote:
> > It seems, at the very least, unethical for the management at what is generally a nice property to employ such sleazy and misleading tactics aimed specifically at their most loyal customers.
> > Dan
> >

Paladin,

First I want to take this opportunity to ask a burning question: Is your pseudonym an allusion to the fierce warriors of Charlemagne or are you really the ghost of Richard Boone?

Although I may not have been very clear in my original post regarding Belterra's misleading cashback ripoff, I am not complaining that I came to the vp party late. My complaint is that Belterra was so unethical on this "9X Cashback" promotion. I would have been fine if the promotion had been "2X Cashback" which would have been closer to the truth, or even if there had been no promotion.

I won't pretend to understand the thinking of others, but why would management of a nice property target their upper tier players for what was basically a scam?

Dan

#10

Dan,

you mention acvpp -- is this a db or group dedicated to AC vp/gambling? Since I'm on the East Coast and bound by work schedules, I can only travel to AC and this would be very helpful.

Thanks,

MCS

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "sechkardan" <sechkar@...> wrote:

> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "sechkardan" <sechkar@> wrote:
> >
> > It seems, at the very least, unethical for the management at what is generally a nice property to employ such sleazy and misleading tactics aimed specifically at their most loyal customers.
>
>
> Dan,
> I agree with you. In AC some casinos were doing the same thing. Trump Taj might still be guilty of this, but they get around it by writing a disclaimer on the bottom of the promo which states that management reserves the right to determine on a daily basis the rate of CB( or something to that effect).> Larry F.
>

Larry,
I've followed some of those AC discussions on acvpp. The fine print on the Belterra promo postcard states "See mychoice center for details," and "Management reserves the right to cancel or modify this promotion with prior written notification and approval from IGC." I didn't receive any prior written notification, but I suppose I should have done due diligence and seen the mychoice center for details. Unfortunately, the last time I asked for the written rules to a Belterra promotion at the mychoice center I was told that there were no written rules.

I would have been fine if Belterra had been honest and transparent about the terms of this promotion, but I guess I was expecting too much.
Dan

#11

It's a cut-throat business and they want your money. All of it. And once they're done with you, it's on to the next victim.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "sechkardan" <sechkar@...> wrote:

I won't pretend to understand the thinking of others, but why would management of a nice property target their upper tier players for what was basically a scam?

#12

MCS, I'm not Dan - but am a member of acvpp (which is another YahooGroups community geared specifically to video poker players who frequent Atlantic City). You must request to join this group and here is the necessary email address to which to send your request.
acvpp-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Neil M.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "ms069279" <m_savorelli@...> wrote:

Dan,

you mention acvpp -- is this a db or group dedicated to AC vp/gambling? Since I'm on the East Coast and bound by work schedules, I can only travel to AC and this would be very helpful.

Thanks,

MCS

#13

First I want to take this opportunity to ask a burning question: Is your pseudonym an allusion to the fierce warriors of Charlemagne or are you really the ghost of Richard Boone?

A little of both. IIRC, paladin (or some deriv.) is the Arabic word for knight. The French bastardized the word. Yes, but dig the chess piece on the Paladin business card.

Although I may not have been very clear in my original post regarding Belterra's misleading cashback ripoff, I am not complaining that I came to the vp party late. My complaint is that Belterra was so unethical on this "9X Cashback" promotion. I would have been fine if the promotion had been "2X Cashback" which would have been closer to the truth, or even if there had been no promotion.

I won't pretend to understand the thinking of others, but why would management of a nice property target their upper tier players for what was basically a scam?

Ummm..because they're desperate? Remember, Pinnacle bought the Sands in AC, and wanted to build a casino there. They reduced the Sands to a parking lot, and then they discovered that they wouldn't be able to get the $1B+ to build it. I think they even still have billboards imploring the public to wait and see what the have to offer when they finally open, which is looking like 2020, if ever.

There's no shortage of weasel factor these days. Consider MGM Mirage, which ran a locals "play some get some" promo in Vegas , and then excluded people from the promo if they hit a royal (like a $20K one). Except they didn't tell the players they were excluded. But not to worry...their day is coming. Aria won't save them.

Finally, what you're complaining of happens in AC all the time. What they do is reduce the theo on the game accordingly, since cash back is based on theo and not a fixed amount, then take the new number and use that for the base.

Y'all going to have to get used to this, casinos just won't tolerate getting beat on VP anymore. I can't wait to see what posts on VPFree will look like by the end of this year.

#14

Pinnacle, having seen the light (or darkness), has completely pulled out. Anybody want to buy a fairly decent lot?

Morgan Stanley's under-construction Revel has been scrounging around for $300 million or so in tax breaks (from a state in perilous financial condition), and that was even before the construction crane crashed 47 stories to the street.

···

On 3/15/2010 12:34 PM, WP SF wrote:

> First I want to take this opportunity to ask a burning question: Is your pseudonym an allusion to the fierce warriors of Charlemagne or are you really the ghost of Richard Boone?

A little of both. IIRC, paladin (or some deriv.) is the Arabic word for knight. The French bastardized the word. Yes, but dig the chess piece on the Paladin business card.

> Although I may not have been very clear in my original post regarding Belterra's misleading cashback ripoff, I am not complaining that I came to the vp party late. My complaint is that Belterra was so unethical on this "9X Cashback" promotion. I would have been fine if the promotion had been "2X Cashback" which would have been closer to the truth, or even if there had been no promotion.
>
> I won't pretend to understand the thinking of others, but why would management of a nice property target their upper tier players for what was basically a scam?

Ummm..because they're desperate? Remember, Pinnacle bought the Sands in AC, and wanted to build a casino there. They reduced the Sands to a parking lot, and then they discovered that they wouldn't be able to get the $1B+ to build it. I think they even still have billboards imploring the public to wait and see what the have to offer when they finally open, which is looking like 2020, if ever.

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