vpFREE2 Forums

Believe it or not? RNG on tight/loose machines

#1

Yes, I believe in that random number generator (RNG)
and for some reason, also believe in that there are
tight/loose machines. In other words, in a group of
say 12 DDB Poker machines, the casinos can set 2 of
the machines to be tighter than the others, 2 of them
are looser than the others while the truth about the
RNG is still in place. The looser machines can be
programmed to have, for example, the Full House to
occur twice as many as in those tighter machines. I
could be wrong but, just from reading today's column
from Bob Dancer about the looser machines at Fiesta
casinos, it seems like the machines can be set to be
looser or tighter. Is this from picking or setting a
different seed (the number used for random generation)
or ??? (all legal of course, just setting some
machines to collect more or to give more credits all
within the legal limits)

Can someone explain how this is done in more details?

Thanks.

···

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#2

Yes, I believe in that random number generator (RNG)
and for some reason, also believe in that there are
tight/loose machines. In other words, in a group of
say 12 DDB Poker machines, the casinos can set 2 of
the machines to be tighter than the others, 2 of them
are looser than the others while the truth about the
RNG is still in place. The looser machines can be
programmed to have, for example, the Full House to
occur twice as many as in those tighter machines. I
could be wrong but, just from reading today's column
from Bob Dancer about the looser machines at Fiesta
casinos, it seems like the machines can be set to be
looser or tighter. Is this from picking or setting a
different seed (the number used for random generation)
or ??? (all legal of course, just setting some
machines to collect more or to give more credits all
within the legal limits)

Can someone explain how this is done in more details?

Nevada law stipulates that all machines manufactured by a company that sells
machines in Nevada must satisfy Nevada's legal requirements. Those legal
requirements preclude the possibility that VP machines with the same
paytable have different payback percentages. That means that there are not
some loose and some tight machines having the same paytable. If they are a
legal machine (ie. not tampered with, or with an illegal chip installed)
then the casinos' only method of adjusting the payback is by changing the
paytable.

The different seed that you refer to has no impact on the payback percentage
of the machine. It is simply the starting number in the sequence of random
numbers generated.

The modern VP (and slot) machines are controlled by a computer. While a
machine is sitting there idle, the computer is continuously and rapidly
generating random (actually pseudo-random) numbers. When a customer inserts
a coin or presses the BET button, a number/numbers in this sequence is/are
chosen. Using the random number(s) the computer will determine what 10
cards (5 initial and 5 replacements) make up the hand. After the player
selects the holds and presses draw, the final 5 card hand determines the
outcome.

G'luck

Gamb00lers

#3

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Gilbert Escobar <gilbert_616@y...>
wrote:

Yes, I believe in that random number generator (RNG)
and for some reason, also believe in that there are
tight/loose machines. In other words, in a group of
say 12 DDB Poker machines, the casinos can set 2 of
the machines to be tighter than the others, 2 of them
are looser than the others while the truth about the
RNG is still in place. The looser machines can be
programmed to have, for example, the Full House to
occur twice as many as in those tighter machines. I
could be wrong but, just from reading today's column
from Bob Dancer about the looser machines at Fiesta
casinos, it seems like the machines can be set to be
looser or tighter. Is this from picking or setting a
different seed (the number used for random generation)
or ??? (all legal of course, just setting some
machines to collect more or to give more credits all
within the legal limits)

Can someone explain how this is done in more details?

Thanks.

If you are talking about "regulated" video poker machines, then the
answer is: No, the casinos cannot tweak the looseness or tightness of
machines. The "loose" or "tight" machine is based on the pay-table.

1. Keep in mind there is no real "random number generator" per se.
There **is** software designed to be pseudo-random, i.e. deemed
random enough by the regulators. It is the software that can be
tweaked.

2. Strategy affects how often certain hands come up. For example,
keeping a pair over 3 flush cards will have a material impact on the
full house cycle, i.e. the speed at which you hit full houses.

3. Machines have no memory; every wager is an independent event.

Here's an example to understand randomness vs loose/tight machines.
I play a vp game where a flush occurs once in about 40 hands. Since
the game has a hand-meter (i.e. how many hands I've played), I've
tracked the frequency of flushes. In some droughts, I can't hit a
flush in 300 hands (and I think the machine is defective). Other
times, I hit 10 flushes in 300 hands (and I'm so lucky to find this
defective machine). None of these events means the game is tight or
loose (or defective) on flushes. It turns out, I've been averaging
about a flush every 40 hands since I've collected data on 20,000
hands.

If a casino can change the frequency of the hand, then IMO, the game
isn't honest.

Cheers.

#4

If your assumptions are correct, the strategy sheets are useless since
they presume that the machines are absolutely random. When Bob Dancer
talks about "looser machines", I think he is referring to a comparison
of the machines pay tables. Dick M.

Gilbert Escobar wrote:

  The looser machines can be
programmed to have, for example, the Full House to
occur twice as many as in those tighter machines. I
could be wrong but, just from reading today's column
from Bob Dancer about the looser machines at Fiesta
casinos, it seems like the machines can be set to be
looser or tighter. Is this from picking or setting a
different seed (the number used for random generation)
or ??? (all legal of course, just setting some
machines to collect more or to give more credits all
within the legal limits)

Can someone explain how this is done in more details?

Thanks.

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#5

According to an article in the American Casino Guide (which validates my experience as a programmer) "one of the chief software engineers" at IGT explains that when either the Deal/Spin or Max Bet buttons are pushed, in Nevada 5 cards are drawn (my presumption is that the RNG spits off 5 numbers between 1 and 52 (more for specialized games) and these are translated into cards with a check for duplicates). To program all combinations of 5 cards in any order would involve a huge database to translate each one of millions of numbers and you wouldn't gain anything by that. More importantly, when the Deal/Draw button is pressed for the second time the replacement cards are then drawn.

Actually, although it doesn't matter from a mathematical standpoint whether 10 cards are drawn initially or it is 5 and 5, I find psychologically I would be more comfortable in a deterministic world where WHEN I press the draw button doesn't matter and the result is pre-ordained. In the article he says that some jurisdictions require all 10 to be drawn. I just have to live with the fact that if I'd only not hesitated in pressing ............

···

The modern VP (and slot) machines are controlled by a computer. While a
machine is sitting there idle, the computer is continuously and rapidly
generating random (actually pseudo-random) numbers. When a customer inserts
a coin or presses the BET button, a number/numbers in this sequence is/are
chosen. Using the random number(s) the computer will determine what 10
cards (5 initial and 5 replacements) make up the hand. After the player
selects the holds and presses draw, the final 5 card hand determines the
outcome.

#6

"...it doesn't matter from a mathematical standpoint whether 10 cards
are drawn initially or it is 5 and 5, I find psychologically I would
be more comfortable in a deterministic world where WHEN I press the
draw button doesn't matter and the result is pre-ordained. In the
article he says that some jurisdictions require all 10 to be drawn. I
just have to live with the fact that if I'd only not hesitated in
pressing ............"

That explains the origin of Ten-Seven Poker (TM)*. The player is
given all ten cards at the getgo. You **NOW** know whether or not a
royal flush was possible. I always hated when I was dealt 4 to the
royal flush, with Ten-Seven Poker you knew whether the RF was in the
cards (bad pun intended; note, this is similar to Sigma Game's Sneak
Peek Poker). The purpose of Ten-Seven Poker was to give the player
multiple shots at the possible royal flush!! Also The ten cards was
to eliminate the parallel vs serial debate.

Cheers.

*(my shameless plug) http://www.sigmagame.com/tenseven2.html

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <billc140@m...> wrote:

#7

In the 2003 edition of American Casino Guide, the author interviews
James Vasquez, firmware engineering manager of IGT. In response to
the author's question as to whether the cards are dealt in a serial
or parallel manner, Mr. Vasquez states as follows: "It's serial and
the five later cards aren't determined until there is more player
interaction at the time of the draw". He goes on to state that in
some jurisdictions all ten cards are dealt at once, but in Nevada,
they are dealt five and five. I believe that this contradicts the
common assumption that all ten cards are dealt at once when the deal
button is hit. Does anyone know for sure which is correct?

Hask

Using the random number(s) the computer will determine what 10

cards (5 initial and 5 replacements) make up the hand. After the

player

selects the holds and presses draw, the final 5 card hand

determines the

···

outcome.

G'luck

Gamb00lers

#8

While a machine is sitting there idle, the computer is continuously and

rapidly enerating random (actually pseudo-random) numbers. When a customer
inserts a coin or presses the BET button, a number/numbers in this sequence
is/are chosen.<<

That also explains why, when you get up from a machine and someone else sits
down and immediately hits something big, you can't think that you would have
got it if you'd stayed.
lb

#9

There is no one that could possibly give a more authoritative answer
than Mr. Vasquez, who by the way is really sharp and is a really nice
guy.

-Larry

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "haskd89052 <haskd89052@y...>"
<haskd89052@y...> wrote:

In the 2003 edition of American Casino Guide, the author interviews
James Vasquez, firmware engineering manager of IGT. In response to
the author's question as to whether the cards are dealt in a serial
or parallel manner, Mr. Vasquez states as follows: "It's serial and
the five later cards aren't determined until there is more player
interaction at the time of the draw". He goes on to state that in
some jurisdictions all ten cards are dealt at once, but in Nevada,
they are dealt five and five. I believe that this contradicts the
common assumption that all ten cards are dealt at once when the

deal

···

button is hit. Does anyone know for sure which is correct?

Hask

Using the random number(s) the computer will determine what 10
> cards (5 initial and 5 replacements) make up the hand. After the
player
> selects the holds and presses draw, the final 5 card hand
determines the
> outcome.
>
> G'luck
>
> Gamb00lers

#10

Well, GILBERT, in the state of Nevada, there is no such thing as a tight or
loose video poker machine. All the chips in a 10/6 DDB machine are
identical, as is the RNG. Now that IS the undeniable truth about video
poker.

···

*************************************************
Stay Away from the Suncoast & Save Full Pay VP

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gilbert Escobar" <gilbert_616@yahoo.com>
To: "vpFREE" <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 1:00 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Believe it or not? RNG on tight/loose machines

Yes, I believe in that random number generator (RNG)
and for some reason, also believe in that there are
tight/loose machines. In other words, in a group of
say 12 DDB Poker machines, the casinos can set 2 of
the machines to be tighter than the others, 2 of them
are looser than the others while the truth about the
RNG is still in place. The looser machines can be
programmed to have, for example, the Full House to
occur twice as many as in those tighter machines. I
could be wrong but, just from reading today's column
from Bob Dancer about the looser machines at Fiesta
casinos, it seems like the machines can be set to be
looser or tighter. Is this from picking or setting a
different seed (the number used for random generation)
or ??? (all legal of course, just setting some
machines to collect more or to give more credits all
within the legal limits)

Can someone explain how this is done in more details?

#11

A vp machine can't be tight as in a slot machine, but it can be tight as in a bad paytable.
Tight is a loose term, but I don't have a problem calling a 6/5 JB machine tight.
I do agree that the RNG can't legally be tweaked on a Nevada VP machine.
All 10/6 DDB machines in Nevada that have not been illegally tampered with will have the same potential pay-outs.

Regards
A.P.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Video Poker Vegas
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 11:31 PM
  Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Believe it or not? RNG on tight/loose machines

  Well, GILBERT, in the state of Nevada, there is no such thing as a tight or
  loose video poker machine. All the chips in a 10/6 DDB machine are
  identical, as is the RNG. Now that IS the undeniable truth about video
  poker.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#12

Thanks for your comments A.P. and Vegas Video Poker!
Many of you are lucky enough to be playing solely in
vegas where machines are "honest".

Some of us do live a lot closer to the Indian casinos
and can't afford to be in vegas each time we want to
play, so sometimes advice like "Don't play in Indian
casinos." is not working all-the-time.

That's why questions or topics like this one are sent
out --- to get more "doubts" out of our
"non-professional"/"non-expert-play" minds. Every
little bit of tips/advices do help --- that's all, no
monkey business intended.

So, for those who do not like reading topics like
this, please forgive us rookies or no-brainers or
whatever you want to call us and just hit your Delete
button instead of sending a Reply like "Don't do this
again.". Have you forgotten that you are in America?
And for those who don't mind reading these topics,
we/I really appreciate your inputs/comments. Thank
you!

···

--- Albert Pearson <a-p@sympatico.ca> wrote:

A vp machine can't be tight as in a slot machine,
but it can be tight as in a bad paytable.
Tight is a loose term, but I don't have a problem
calling a 6/5 JB machine tight.
I do agree that the RNG can't legally be tweaked on
a Nevada VP machine.
All 10/6 DDB machines in Nevada that have not been
illegally tampered with will have the same potential
pay-outs.

Regards
A.P.
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Video Poker Vegas
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 11:31 PM
  Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Believe it or not? RNG on
tight/loose machines

  Well, GILBERT, in the state of Nevada, there is
no such thing as a tight or
  loose video poker machine. All the chips in a
10/6 DDB machine are
  identical, as is the RNG. Now that IS the
undeniable truth about video
  poker.

[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]

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#13

Gilbert Escobar wrote:

Some of us do live a lot closer to the Indian casinos
and can't afford to be in vegas each time we want to
play, so sometimes advice like "Don't play in Indian
casinos." is not working all-the-time.

The operative advice that always applies and should be taken to heart
is to recognize that Nat.Amer. operated casinos aren't supervised by
state regulators and therefore the games may not be random. Where
possible, stick to industry standard mfg. games (IGT, etc.). Be wary
of machines labelled video lottery terminals (VLT) and of unknown
makes. Play with an understanding of the risks.

So, for those who do not like reading topics like
this, please forgive us rookies or no-brainers or
whatever you want to call us and just hit your Delete
button instead of sending a Reply like "Don't do this
again.". Have you forgotten that you are in America?

I don't recall any such name calling or "don't do". (Did you receive
something of this nature privately?) The "undeniable truth" post
quoted in your email, while rather direct and to the point, hardly
could be characterized in that manner.

People do occasionally get carried away here, Gilbert. However, I
think your post received a very constructive and active response from
the group. Lighten up just a bit and be appreciative that people were
interested in what you wrote and took the time to reply. There's no
more frustrating feeling that to post and receive no replies
whatsoever. (If a tree falls and no one hears it ...)

- Harry