vpFREE2 Forums

Being "Backroomed"

#1

The vast majority of good VP plays include some promotion--multipoints,
drawings, COTD, etc. Since you usually cannot participate in promotions unless
playing with a valid slot card, simply revoking slot club privileges is the
easiest way to stymie the advantage VP player. It also generates the least bad
publicity, much less than "backrooming" or trespassing.

Card counters, hole carders, shuffle trackers, dice setters, and other types
of advantage gamblers are not so easily deterred. Therefore, the casinos
take stronger actions against them. Simplest is to trespass--that is, to
officially notify the player that if he returns to the property he will be subject
to arrest for trespassing. This notification is usually given in the "back
room," though not always. I know one individual who was trespassed from Palace
Station by certified mail!

Brian

···

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

In a message dated 7/20/2005 9:01:54 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jackessiebabe@yahoo.com writes:

I think that Bob is quite correct in stating that VP players are
rarely backroomed, but rather backed off or trespassed. After all,
if they didn't subject the really big players, who took them for a
bundle (think BD) to this treatment, why would they do it to a
lesser winner?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

It is refreshing to hear some common sense on this issue. I have read
many of the posts on this subject with some degree of skepticism. I
hate to make a judgement without all of the facts, but my opinion is
that some, if not many, of so-called advantage players enjoy the
thrill of the trying to outwit the casino, more so than actually
winning money. It seems the most common attempt is to use disguises.
Yet when they are caught, they expect that the casino will react in a
rational and lawful manner. Sorry, but humans, especially security,
cannot be expected to ALWAYS react in a rational and lawful manner. It
might not be fair, but it is reality.

Card counters, hole carders, shuffle trackers, dice setters, and

other types

of advantage gamblers are not so easily deterred. Therefore, the

casinos

take stronger actions against them. Simplest is to trespass--that

is, to

officially notify the player that if he returns to the property he

will be subject

to arrest for trespassing. This notification is usually given in

the "back

room," though not always. I know one individual who was trespassed

from Palace

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, bjaygold@a... wrote:

Station by certified mail!

Brian

#3

I will leave this with a thought from my retail days. Due to a large
theft problem the store I worked in seemed to have more cameras then a
Vegas casino. Somebody who was brought in for shoplifting sued us for
beating the crap out of them. Now for the good part.....every step
this person took from the time he entered the store, through the
"employee" backroom area till he was escorted out by police was
recorded. Two days later the store was served with papers saying he
was beaten and they were suing for millions. You can see on the video
that nothing happened. We had several camera angles showing noting
happened. The lawyers / insurance company settled for $75k........
Let's see, steal a leather jacket and make $50,000 after paying the
lawyer his (or her) 1/3. I am so in the wrong line of work......

How much of the "I was wrongly backroomed" we hear about is this too?

Now as I said in another message. Yes I'm sure at times, the Casino
[including management, security, etc.] goes over the line. But, if it
DID happen on a regular basis, they would be sued on a regular basis.
Soon, they would have no insurance company willing to cover them for a
normal sane rate. (if there is such a thing, but that is a discussion
for another day.....)

-Dave

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Charles" <fromthevault@y...> wrote:

It is refreshing to hear some common sense on this issue. I have read
many of the posts on this subject with some degree of skepticism. I
hate to make a judgement without all of the facts, but my opinion is
that some, if not many, of so-called advantage players enjoy the
thrill of the trying to outwit the casino, more so than actually
winning money. It seems the most common attempt is to use disguises.
Yet when they are caught, they expect that the casino will react in a
rational and lawful manner. Sorry, but humans, especially security,
cannot be expected to ALWAYS react in a rational and lawful manner. It
might not be fair, but it is reality.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, bjaygold@a... wrote:
>
> Card counters, hole carders, shuffle trackers, dice setters, and
other types
> of advantage gamblers are not so easily deterred. Therefore, the
casinos
> take stronger actions against them. Simplest is to trespass--that
is, to
> officially notify the player that if he returns to the property he
will be subject
> to arrest for trespassing. This notification is usually given in
the "back
> room," though not always. I know one individual who was trespassed
from Palace
> Station by certified mail!
>
> Brian

#4

There are either no cameras in the backroom where I was or the
casino denied that there were any. You had the video and choose
either the cheap or cowards way out. If I had had a video, believe
me the settlement would not have been as easy on them. Apples and
oranges.
Victoria

I will leave this with a thought from my retail days. Due to a

large

theft problem the store I worked in seemed to have more cameras

then a

Vegas casino. Somebody who was brought in for shoplifting sued us

for

beating the crap out of them. Now for the good part.....every step
this person took from the time he entered the store, through the
"employee" backroom area till he was escorted out by police was
recorded. Two days later the store was served with papers saying he
was beaten and they were suing for millions. You can see on the

video

that nothing happened. We had several camera angles showing noting
happened. The lawyers / insurance company settled for $75k........
Let's see, steal a leather jacket and make $50,000 after paying the
lawyer his (or her) 1/3. I am so in the wrong line of work......

How much of the "I was wrongly backroomed" we hear about is this

too?

Now as I said in another message. Yes I'm sure at times, the Casino
[including management, security, etc.] goes over the line. But, if

it

DID happen on a regular basis, they would be sued on a regular

basis.

Soon, they would have no insurance company willing to cover them

for a

normal sane rate. (if there is such a thing, but that is a

discussion

for another day.....)

-Dave

> It is refreshing to hear some common sense on this issue. I have

read

> many of the posts on this subject with some degree of

skepticism. I

> hate to make a judgement without all of the facts, but my

opinion is

> that some, if not many, of so-called advantage players enjoy the
> thrill of the trying to outwit the casino, more so than actually
> winning money. It seems the most common attempt is to use

disguises.

> Yet when they are caught, they expect that the casino will react

in a

> rational and lawful manner. Sorry, but humans, especially

security,

> cannot be expected to ALWAYS react in a rational and lawful

manner. It

> might not be fair, but it is reality.
>
> >
> > Card counters, hole carders, shuffle trackers, dice setters,

and

> other types
> > of advantage gamblers are not so easily deterred. Therefore,

the

> casinos
> > take stronger actions against them. Simplest is to trespass--

that

> is, to
> > officially notify the player that if he returns to the

property he

> will be subject
> > to arrest for trespassing. This notification is usually given

in

> the "back
> > room," though not always. I know one individual who was

trespassed

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dsfeuer" <dave.feuer@g...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Charles" <fromthevault@y...> wrote:
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, bjaygold@a... wrote:
> from Palace
> > Station by certified mail!
> >
> > Brian

#5

It's true "Sorry, but humans, especially security, cannot be expected
to ALWAYS react in a rational and lawful manner. "

This is a great reason for folks to know their rights, like you have
the right not to be kidnapped by casino security.

Some of the responses in this thread seem to forgive or condone
illegal activity by the casinos?

Eric

···

On 7/20/05, Charles <fromthevault@yahoo.com> wrote:

It is refreshing to hear some common sense on this issue. I have read
many of the posts on this subject with some degree of skepticism. I
hate to make a judgement without all of the facts, but my opinion is
that some, if not many, of so-called advantage players enjoy the
thrill of the trying to outwit the casino, more so than actually
winning money. It seems the most common attempt is to use disguises.
Yet when they are caught, they expect that the casino will react in a
rational and lawful manner. Sorry, but humans, especially security,
cannot be expected to ALWAYS react in a rational and lawful manner. It
might not be fair, but it is reality.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, bjaygold@a... wrote:
>
> Card counters, hole carders, shuffle trackers, dice setters, and
other types
> of advantage gamblers are not so easily deterred. Therefore, the
casinos
> take stronger actions against them. Simplest is to trespass--that
is, to
> officially notify the player that if he returns to the property he
will be subject
> to arrest for trespassing. This notification is usually given in
the "back
> room," though not always. I know one individual who was trespassed
from Palace
> Station by certified mail!
>
> Brian

#6

You had the video and choose
either the cheap or cowards way out.

Don't look at me, I just worked there. It was between the lawyers and
the insurance people. IMHO it was neither the cheap or cowards way
that they took with this person. It was just what the insurance
company decided would be the best option. The place where I worked had
0% say in the issue. It might not be right or fair but it's just a
fact of life. I would think (once again I don't know) that any major
casino that is a publicly held company would have to put most any
claim as yours through insurance. Even it you only got $50 out of them
it's part of the way insurance screws with anybody.

Or in private terms. You wreck your car, you have insurance on your
car, you pay out of pocket to have your car fixed. Your rates STILL GO
UP, for the one simple reason insurance companies don't care if you
paid or they paid. You still had a loss and that drives your risk
factor up, at least in their mind. Once again, not fair but a fact of
life. In some states they can't do this, in most others they can.

-Dave

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Victoria Rosado" <ros4144@y...> wrote:

There are either no cameras in the backroom where I was or the
casino denied that there were any. You had the video and choose
either the cheap or cowards way out. If I had had a video, believe
me the settlement would not have been as easy on them. Apples and
oranges.
Victoria

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dsfeuer" <dave.feuer@g...> wrote:
> I will leave this with a thought from my retail days. Due to a
large
> theft problem the store I worked in seemed to have more cameras
then a
> Vegas casino. Somebody who was brought in for shoplifting sued us
for
> beating the crap out of them. Now for the good part.....every step
> this person took from the time he entered the store, through the
> "employee" backroom area till he was escorted out by police was
> recorded. Two days later the store was served with papers saying he
> was beaten and they were suing for millions. You can see on the
video
> that nothing happened. We had several camera angles showing noting
> happened. The lawyers / insurance company settled for $75k........
> Let's see, steal a leather jacket and make $50,000 after paying the
> lawyer his (or her) 1/3. I am so in the wrong line of work......
>
> How much of the "I was wrongly backroomed" we hear about is this
too?
>
> Now as I said in another message. Yes I'm sure at times, the Casino
> [including management, security, etc.] goes over the line. But, if
it
> DID happen on a regular basis, they would be sued on a regular
basis.
> Soon, they would have no insurance company willing to cover them
for a
> normal sane rate. (if there is such a thing, but that is a
discussion
> for another day.....)
>
>
> -Dave
>
>
>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Charles" <fromthevault@y...> wrote:
> > It is refreshing to hear some common sense on this issue. I have
read
> > many of the posts on this subject with some degree of
skepticism. I
> > hate to make a judgement without all of the facts, but my
opinion is
> > that some, if not many, of so-called advantage players enjoy the
> > thrill of the trying to outwit the casino, more so than actually
> > winning money. It seems the most common attempt is to use
disguises.
> > Yet when they are caught, they expect that the casino will react
in a
> > rational and lawful manner. Sorry, but humans, especially
security,
> > cannot be expected to ALWAYS react in a rational and lawful
manner. It
> > might not be fair, but it is reality.
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, bjaygold@a... wrote:
> > >
> > > Card counters, hole carders, shuffle trackers, dice setters,
and
> > other types
> > > of advantage gamblers are not so easily deterred. Therefore,
the
> > casinos
> > > take stronger actions against them. Simplest is to trespass--
that
> > is, to
> > > officially notify the player that if he returns to the
property he
> > will be subject
> > > to arrest for trespassing. This notification is usually given
in
> > the "back
> > > room," though not always. I know one individual who was
trespassed
> > from Palace
> > > Station by certified mail!
> > >
> > > Brian

#7

You have no understanding of the level of intimidation involved in
casino security situations. You can't just talk cold logic & expect
what you "think out" to have any relation to what really happens.

How much of the "I was wrongly backroomed" we hear about is this

too?

Now as I said in another message. Yes I'm sure at times, the Casino
[including management, security, etc.] goes over the line. But, if

it

DID happen on a regular basis, they would be sued on a regular

basis.

Soon, they would have no insurance company willing to cover them

for a

normal sane rate. (if there is such a thing, but that is a

discussion

for another day.....)

-Dave

> It is refreshing to hear some common sense on this issue. I have

read

> many of the posts on this subject with some degree of

skepticism. I

> hate to make a judgement without all of the facts, but my

opinion is

> that some, if not many, of so-called advantage players enjoy the
> thrill of the trying to outwit the casino, more so than actually
> winning money. It seems the most common attempt is to use

disguises.

> Yet when they are caught, they expect that the casino will react

in a

> rational and lawful manner. Sorry, but humans, especially

security,

> cannot be expected to ALWAYS react in a rational and lawful

manner. It

> might not be fair, but it is reality.
>
> >
> > Card counters, hole carders, shuffle trackers, dice setters,

and

> other types
> > of advantage gamblers are not so easily deterred. Therefore,

the

> casinos
> > take stronger actions against them. Simplest is to trespass--

that

> is, to
> > officially notify the player that if he returns to the

property he

> will be subject
> > to arrest for trespassing. This notification is usually given

in

> the "back
> > room," though not always. I know one individual who was

trespassed

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dsfeuer" <dave.feuer@g...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Charles" <fromthevault@y...> wrote:
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, bjaygold@a... wrote:
> from Palace
> > Station by certified mail!
> >
> > Brian

#8

These should be my last comments.

MGM Mirage is self-insured up to a fairly high limit. They do have

excess

insurance, but the practical reality is MGM Mirage makes all the

decisions on

their liability claims

That’s surprising. I know there are a lot of big businesses that self
insure, but once you are in multiple states the cost of litigation
(esp. the nuisance suits) tends to climb to the point where it’s
easier to say “Let somebody else deal with this, and all the local law
BS.”

You have no understanding of the level of intimidation involved in
casino security situations. You can't just talk cold logic & expect
what you "think out" to have any relation to what really happens.

I think security jobs in general, tend to lend themselves to the bully
type personality.
You want true intimidation, try getting caught with a tape recorder at
a concert. You would think I ran over this guys mother and his dog.

So you are stating that poorly trained casino security has the same
power as the police to search you? I think Nevada gives them the
right to detain you if you are accused of a crime and then the police
can search you. You should insist upon being detained in a public
area.

We were told NEVER to detain a person in public, EVEN IF THEY
REQUESTED it. If they are detained in a public or semi-public area you
are putting other patrons at risk if they run for it and are
dangerous. You expose yourself to defamation (or whatever the correct
term is) lawsuits about destroying this persons character because now
everybody thinks they are a crook because they were detained. And,
lets be honest, for the most part we are the good guys here. There are
people who go into a casino with <gasp> weapons. Once again, as I have
said before, YES CASINO STAFF HAVE GONE OVER THE LINE BEFORE AND WILL
DO SO AGAIN. And as a human being, I don’t care if you just stole a
$1.25 TITO ticket, I DO NOT KNOW if you have a 9mm pistol in your
pocket so you can make it out of the casino with your $1.25 I am going
to do whatever I think I need to do to protect me.

-Dave (and oh yeah, happy birthday to me.)

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Boutot" <vegas_iwish@y...> wrote:

You have no understanding of the level of intimidation involved in
casino security situations. You can't just talk cold logic & expect
what you "think out" to have any relation to what really happens.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dsfeuer" <dave.feuer@g...> wrote:
> How much of the "I was wrongly backroomed" we hear about is this
too?
>
> Now as I said in another message. Yes I'm sure at times, the Casino
> [including management, security, etc.] goes over the line. But, if
it
> DID happen on a regular basis, they would be sued on a regular
basis.
> Soon, they would have no insurance company willing to cover them
for a
> normal sane rate. (if there is such a thing, but that is a
discussion
> for another day.....)
>
>
> -Dave
>
>
>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Charles" <fromthevault@y...> wrote:
> > It is refreshing to hear some common sense on this issue. I have
read
> > many of the posts on this subject with some degree of
skepticism. I
> > hate to make a judgement without all of the facts, but my
opinion is
> > that some, if not many, of so-called advantage players enjoy the
> > thrill of the trying to outwit the casino, more so than actually
> > winning money. It seems the most common attempt is to use
disguises.
> > Yet when they are caught, they expect that the casino will react
in a
> > rational and lawful manner. Sorry, but humans, especially
security,
> > cannot be expected to ALWAYS react in a rational and lawful
manner. It
> > might not be fair, but it is reality.
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, bjaygold@a... wrote:
> > >
> > > Card counters, hole carders, shuffle trackers, dice setters,
and
> > other types
> > > of advantage gamblers are not so easily deterred. Therefore,
the
> > casinos
> > > take stronger actions against them. Simplest is to trespass--
that
> > is, to
> > > officially notify the player that if he returns to the
property he
> > will be subject
> > > to arrest for trespassing. This notification is usually given
in
> > the "back
> > > room," though not always. I know one individual who was
trespassed
> > from Palace
> > > Station by certified mail!
> > >
> > > Brian