vpFREE2 Forums

Bankroll

Sorry about the table mess in my post. Yahoo says the HTML editor
should work, but I still can't figure it out.

If anyone wants to see what those tables really look like, just
email me at h_dunbar@hotmail.com.

--Dunbar

That's a very clever and simple way of looking at things, NOTI. I
don't remember seeing it formulated that way before. The
"ballpark" turns out to be quite good for longterm RoR calcs.

I checked for both longterm and short-term RoR/Bankroll agreement

using

Dunbar's Risk Analyzer for Video Poker. FPDW with no cashback
agreed quite well with BP with 0.66% cashback*, especially for the
longterm. Then I thought maybe that's because the two games have
similar variance, so I looked at a big variance game, Double Double
Jackpot. (DDJ has var=38 compared to 26 and 28 for the other two
games.) I still got total agreement on longterm RoR, and just a

little

more dispersion on short-term.

Here are my results:

LONGTERM BANKROLLS for Various RoR's Comparing FPDW (no cashback)
with Double Bonus (0.66% cashback) and Double Double Jackpot (0.78%
cashback)
GAME: FPDW DB,.66% DDJ,.78% % RoR Bankroll Bankroll Bankroll 25%

2,700

2,750 2,750 20% 3,100 3,150 3,150 15% 3,650 3,750 3,750 10% 4,450

4,500

4,500 5% 5,750 5,850 5,900 2% 7,500 7,650 7,650 1% 8,850 9,000

9,000

0.5% 10,150 10,350 10,350 0.1% 13,250 13,500 13,500 0.01% 17,650

18,000

18,000

You can see there's not much difference in the 3 games if you pick
cashback the way NOTI suggested. (Bankrolls above are calculated

using

the jazbo/Sorokin polynomial risk equation.)

SHORT-TERM Results for the same 3 games as above 16 hours at 400
hands/hr, $2000 bankroll
FINAL BANK % CHANGE FPDW DB,.66%CB

DDJ, .78%CB

0 lose 100% 0% 0% 0% 1 - 399 lose 80% to 99% 0% 0% 0% 400 -

799

lose 60% to 80% 0% 0% 0% 800 - 1199 lose 40% to 60% 0% 2% 4%

1200 -

1599 lose 20% to 40% 15% 16% 17% 1600 - 1999 lose up to 20%

39% 34%

29% 2000 - 2399 win up to 20% 25% 27% 23% 2400 - 2799 win 20%

to 40%

11% 12% 14% 2800 - 3199 win 40% to 60% 6% 6% 7% 3200 - 3599

win 60%

to 80% 2% 3% 3% 3600 - 3999 win 80% to 99+% 1% 1% 1% 4000 +

double

or more 0% 0% 1%
In the short-term comparison, the game with the highest variance,

DDJ,

shows more dispersion than the other 2 games. While FPDW stayed

within

20% of the starting bankroll 64% of the time, DDJ stayed within

20% of

the starting bankroll just 52% of the time**.

My conclusion is that NOTI's Kelly fraction method is an excellent
way to find how much cashback it would take to give the same

longterm

bankroll-to-risk relationship as another game. However, it isn't
as well-suited for determining short-term (or session)

bankroll. (I

should note that NOTI never suggested it WAS useful for short-term
bankroll assessment).

One final observation is to note how much difference there is

between

longterm and short-term bankroll considerations. A $2000 bankroll

is

completely adequate for a 16-hour stretch of play, but it would

not be

enough for a longterm bankroll for any of the 3 games above. --

Dunbar

* I used 0.66% instead of NOTI's 0.65% because that's the Kelly
figure I got when using variance and EV figures with more

significant

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dunbar_dra" <h_dunbar@...> wrote:

figures (from WinPoker) than the quick "26" and "28"
that NOTI used.

** each short-term RoR calc consisted of 20,000 trials.

My responses follow...

Take the games already mentioned and find the ones you enjoy the

most.

Stick with those games. You also should factor in where you are

living.

Some of the previously mentioned casinos may be a long ways from

your

home. Las Vegas traffic can be a nighmare at certain times.

My usual "bankroll" is about 20 bets. In other words, on a 3-play 25c
machine, I'll buy-in for $75 (300 credits). I usually quit when I'm 6
bets (90 credits) ahead.

Doesn't VPW have a bankroll facility? You should use it and get a

feel

for what to expect.

Don't forget to factor in comp requirements in bankroll
considerations.

Once you've selected a denomination the number of lines is less
important. Although multi-line has a higher variance it should not

be

too much of a problem at 3 or 5 play. The problem will be finding
anything decent that isn't single line. You may also want to limit
yourself to a few casinos to maximize you comps. Will you have a

Las

Vegas address to give the casinos? That will impact the types of
mailers you will receive.

Actually, I think if you base your bankroll on the number of bets,
multi-hand games actually have a LOWER variance than single-hand
games. Think of it this way: a player playing 1 hand of blackjack at
$15 is the equivalent of a player playing 3 hands of BJ at $5/hand.
The second player (playing 3 hands) will have a LOWER variance than
the first player, if their buy-ins are the same.

There are many, many other considerations as well. Keep asking
questions and provide as much detail as possible.

Other considerations include game availability, comp requirements,
fatigue over session length, and personal preferences.

I hope this helps. See, I don't just post stupid "Tangiers Casino"
articles! Replies appreciated.

The comparsion I was making was comparing single hand play of a given
denom with multi-hand play of the SAME denom. Comparing too different
denoms is a different question.

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "djmcosmo" <djmcosmo@...> wrote:

Actually, I think if you base your bankroll on the number of bets,
multi-hand games actually have a LOWER variance than single-hand
games. Think of it this way: a player playing 1 hand of blackjack at
$15 is the equivalent of a player playing 3 hands of BJ at $5/hand.
The second player (playing 3 hands) will have a LOWER variance than
the first player, if their buy-ins are the same.