vpFREE2 Forums

Atlantic City 'Slot' Video Poker

Offline
Send Email

After constant loosing at vp in AC, I am convinced the video poker
machines are designed with a secondary program. Ive also noticed at
Borgata, in high limit room, 99% of 'hand pays' are <$1500, even on
$10 machines and higher.
It doesn't seem plausable how I, and other semi pro's, lose every
time we play in AC.I play 99% perfect stategy, I practice, I have
changed strategy last 2
trips to 'Singer' method. Went through $10,000 on $1/2/5 games
without 1
quad on last trip. Usually $6500 bankroll per trip. I tried one last
time with larger bankroll to get through 'swings'. Never had a ROYAL
in >250,000 hands and never have seen one on any players machines.
Just typical $1200 quad rarily. My trips to Vegas are successful
and expected giving me the experience to know the machines in AC are
not like the machines in Vegas.
I'm sure everyone reading, who plays in AC, has the same feeling.
Dont continue
to fail to see what is true. NJCCC will not admit to anything other
than the VP machines are considered slots. AND, they are required to
payback less than 99%. So how come 9/6 JoB is allowed if payback is
99.54% ? There needs to be a 'grass roots' effort, on part of the
locals, to stop playing vp until they put REAL vp machines in.
If the greedy casino's can get away with this, dont you think THEY
will ? It would be completely legal since VP is regulated as a slot.
When was your last ROYAL/quad ? Just bad fluctuations ? I think NOT.
I'm sure those in denial will bash me here, evaluate your sessions
before judging me. Why, in Vegas, are the 9/6 JoB machines being
pulled but these 99%+ machines are alive and well in AC ?
Ron
Ocean City Maryland

···

From: "teacuplily" <teacuplily@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:54 pm
Subject: Video Poker teacuplily

AT last someone feels the same way I do, who has
played video poker and evaluates it without prejudice.
My experience in playing VP in AC is the same.
Something has changed in the past four of five years.
Royals have been very scarce but close misses of hands
are many, but many gamblers will not admit the truth
or "that they have been had".
Good for you for speaking out.
Vet

···

--- teacuplily <teacuplily@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: "teacuplily" <teacuplily@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:54 pm
Subject: Video Poker teacuplily
Offline
Send Email

After constant loosing at vp in AC, I am convinced
the video poker
machines are designed with a secondary program. Ive
also noticed at
Borgata, in high limit room, 99% of 'hand pays' are
<$1500, even on
$10 machines and higher.
It doesn't seem plausable how I, and other semi
pro's, lose every
time we play in AC.I play 99% perfect stategy, I
practice, I have
changed strategy last 2
trips to 'Singer' method. Went through $10,000 on
$1/2/5 games
without 1
quad on last trip. Usually $6500 bankroll per trip.
I tried one last
time with larger bankroll to get through 'swings'.
Never had a ROYAL
in >250,000 hands and never have seen one on any
players machines.
Just typical $1200 quad rarily. My trips to Vegas
are successful
and expected giving me the experience to know the
machines in AC are
not like the machines in Vegas.
I'm sure everyone reading, who plays in AC, has the
same feeling.
Dont continue
to fail to see what is true. NJCCC will not admit to
anything other
than the VP machines are considered slots. AND, they
are required to
payback less than 99%. So how come 9/6 JoB is
allowed if payback is
99.54% ? There needs to be a 'grass roots' effort,
on part of the
locals, to stop playing vp until they put REAL vp
machines in.
If the greedy casino's can get away with this, dont
you think THEY
will ? It would be completely legal since VP is
regulated as a slot.
When was your last ROYAL/quad ? Just bad
fluctuations ? I think NOT.
I'm sure those in denial will bash me here, evaluate
your sessions
before judging me. Why, in Vegas, are the 9/6 JoB
machines being
pulled but these 99%+ machines are alive and well in
AC ?
Ron
Ocean City Maryland

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

teacuplily wrote:

After constant loosing at vp in AC, I am convinced the video poker
machines are designed with a secondary program.
It doesn't seem plausable how I, and other semi pro's, lose every
time we play in AC.

Ron,

While I don't think any comments I might offer are going to change
your perceptions, I'll note that video poker is far more volatile than
most any player expects -- even relatively low variance games such as
Jacks. And, unfortunately, someone is going to experience that 1 in
1000 (or 1 in 10,000) devastating streak that will seem to belie
statistics but without fail will happen to some unfortunate active player.

···

--------

My own AC experiences this last year have left me dizzied. From
Mar-Sep I suffered close to 200,000 hand royal drought at one casino
(I had one hit at another casino during this time that was of small
consequence). I was extremely fortunate that other hands seemed to
come in well within expectation so that cashback and cash bonuses did
much to soften the bankroll damage I'd otherwise have suffered.

Beginning with Labor Day the royals started coming in with greater
than average frequency. The kicker was in early October when I nailed
three in a single day (a first that few I've spoken to have enjoyed).
Things were running pretty fine through to the end of the year when
things again started to sour.

Then, in my last 25,000 hands of play this month, I suffered a loss of
over 1800 bets (2.2 royals). To be honest, I'm more than a little
tramautised and have some trepidation about getting back in the saddle
for fear the the streak might extend with continued vengeance.

--------

Personally, I'm still satisfied that my AC play is on fair machines.
If I had any significant doubts, my remedy would be to cease playing
there.

You've suggested that's exactly what you intend and it's entirely
appropriate. Playing anywhere you're uncomfortable is a fool's errand.

Obviously I play at denominations considerably smaller than yours. If
I become concerned with my play experience down the road, the likely
reason will be that I no longer wish to deal with the variance
exposure. I'd cut denomination or, if for some reason that shouldn't
prove a satisfactory alternative, I'll quit.

- Harry

I agree with what Harry said. VP is very volatile.

In general, it makes little sense in gambling to do statistics on an
event that is expected to occur less than about 20 to 30 times; below
that value the variations are too large for any significant trend to
emerge. Around 20 to 30 times, a trend is likely to start to emerge
from the variation, but any deviation can still be considered totally
normal. It takes many more cycles for the underlying trend to strongly
overcome the variations.

Our human brains tend to have a hard time grasping the notion of
variance, and what we may perceive as being "far from average" might
actually be entirely expected.

A few observations:

-in VP, the median is less than the average, i.e. you're more likely
to have a below average session than an above average session.

-Since big hands are independent, you're more likely to be in a
drought than in a streak.

-99% accuracy is pretty low in JoB. That level of accuracy triples
your average long-term losses. I hope for you that you've been
truncating some decimals. Personally I'm unhappy below 99.95% in JoB,
99.8% in DB. YMMV.

-As far as I'm concerned, I bankroll at least 1.1 royals for a 2-day
week-end of single-line JoB. That's an amount that I wouldn't be
surprised to lose. Since I like to feel comfortable with my bankroll,
I typically give myself an extra margin. With your bankroll and my
rule of thumb, you may be somewhat underbankrolled to play above the
dollar level.

-Playing single-line JoB for an entire week-end, I wouldn't find it
entirely surprising to hit no RF, no SF, and fewer quads and FH than
usual. Within those conditions, I wouldn't be surprised to only see a
95% return over a week-end. Switching denominations increases the
likelihood of such an event happening.

-Never forget that all plays are independent. The fact that you've
been losing in your last few sessions means absolutely nothing for the
future ones: you're still more likely to have a losing session than a
winning one.

JBQ

···

On 2/21/06, Harry Porter <harry.porter@verizon.net> wrote:

While I don't think any comments I might offer are going to change
your perceptions, I'll note that video poker is far more volatile than
most any player expects

Hi! I was just wondering what I may have misssed in the rest of your message. To what
"event" are you referring?

With one "hand" being completely independent from every other one, I do not see how
changing denominations would affect anything, except risking less money if you went
down in denomination, or risking more if you went up.

Thanks.

.....bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Baptiste Queru" <jbqueru@...> wrote:

Switching denominations increases the
likelihood of such an event happening.

Sorry, I was indeed unclear.

Switching denominations affects the length of the cycles for the top payouts.

As an example, if you play 60% $1, 30% $2 and 10% $5, the top payout
cycle ($5 RF) becomes 400000 hands. That means that, relatively
speaking, long term now takes 10 times longer to reach. Put if another
way, it means that the variations over a week-end are even less likely
to follow a normal distribution, and predictions should take into
account the risk that the top payouts won't hit at all.

All that assumes that the hands are played independently, i.e. that
you don't use a betting system. With a betting system, hands aren't
independent any more: the potential results of one hand depend on the
previous hand(s).

With a betting system where you increase the size of the bets as you
fall further behind (martingale and its friends), things are
different. You're attempting to move the mean above the average, in
order to have more winning sessions than losing sessions. Studying the
"long-term" of those systems requires to play long enough to have a
large number of independent losing sessions, which can be too long to
be practical for most or any player (depending on the range of
available denominations). In the short-term, such a system makes you
more likely to come out a winner, but the infrequent losses hurt you
as much.

JBQ

···

On 2/22/06, bornloser1537 <bornloser1537@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi! I was just wondering what I may have misssed in the rest of your message. To what
"event" are you referring?

With one "hand" being completely independent from every other one, I do not see how
changing denominations would affect anything, except risking less money if you went
down in denomination, or risking more if you went up.

Ron,

While it is fun to think that bad results are due to fraud, it is a
simple matter to call the Casino Control Commission and verify their
requirements for VP. They will be happy to tell you what their rules
are for approving machines (VP MUST deal randomly from a full deck
with each card having an equal chance to appear in order to be
approved in NJ. Unlike NV this is not enshrined in the regs but is
enforced absolutely.)

···

At 06:09 PM 2/21/2006, you wrote:

From: "teacuplily" <teacuplily@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:54 pm
Subject: Video Poker teacuplily
Offline
Send Email

After constant loosing at vp in AC, I am convinced the video poker
machines are designed with a secondary program. Ive also noticed at
Borgata, in high limit room, 99% of 'hand pays' are <$1500, even on
$10 machines and higher.
It doesn't seem plausable how I, and other semi pro's, lose every
time we play in AC.I play 99% perfect stategy, I practice, I have
changed strategy last 2
trips to 'Singer' method. Went through $10,000 on $1/2/5 games
without 1
quad on last trip. Usually $6500 bankroll per trip. I tried one last
time with larger bankroll to get through 'swings'. Never had a ROYAL
in >250,000 hands and never have seen one on any players machines.
Just typical $1200 quad rarily. My trips to Vegas are successful
and expected giving me the experience to know the machines in AC are
not like the machines in Vegas.
I'm sure everyone reading, who plays in AC, has the same feeling.
Dont continue
to fail to see what is true. NJCCC will not admit to anything other
than the VP machines are considered slots. AND, they are required to
payback less than 99%. So how come 9/6 JoB is allowed if payback is
99.54% ? There needs to be a 'grass roots' effort, on part of the
locals, to stop playing vp until they put REAL vp machines in.
If the greedy casino's can get away with this, dont you think THEY
will ? It would be completely legal since VP is regulated as a slot.
When was your last ROYAL/quad ? Just bad fluctuations ? I think NOT.
I'm sure those in denial will bash me here, evaluate your sessions
before judging me. Why, in Vegas, are the 9/6 JoB machines being
pulled but these 99%+ machines are alive and well in AC ?
Ron
Ocean City Maryland

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Excellent points JBQ.

  I thought I'd run some of this through Dunbar VP Risk Analyzer. I used $2 9/6 JB with a 99.9% accuracy (I figured the 99% was a typo) .5% cashback and 800 hands an hour. I also entered a total of 50 hours for the trip (figuring about 5 days at about 10 hours a day). The RoR for a $10,000 bankroll was 19%. Leaving everything else the same, I then removed the CB, since one might very well be getting only bounceback, it's not reflective of the actual cash you would leave with - or without. RoR goes up to 26%. That's giving the casino a pretty good shot at cleaning you out. Then, just in case the 99% was real, I changed the hourly loss to reflect that and the RoR jumped up to 50%!

That brought up an interesting point that's somwhat outside the scope of this thread (but interesting to me). A lot of folks really do play at 99% accuracy, even decent enough players who play unfamiliar games, will often be playing at this level. We all know that short-term results are mostly dependent on luck, but when your RoR can double due to a 1% error rate, it's obvious that at least moderately accurate play (better than 99.5%) is very important, even in the short run.

  If one were playing 9/6 DDB (the game of choice for the "singer rmethod") instead of 9/6 JB with these parameters, the RoR jumps to 66%! Of course, using the "Singer Method" will just accelerate all of this if you are getting bad cards.

I have no idea about whether the AC machines are OK or not, but I know of some very smart people who play there. I'm sure there are people here who know about the NJ gaming regs.
Skip

Jean-Baptiste Queru wrote:

···

I agree with what Harry said. VP is very volatile.

In general, it makes little sense in gambling to do statistics on an
event that is expected to occur less than about 20 to 30 times; below
that value the variations are too large for any significant trend to
emerge. Around 20 to 30 times, a trend is likely to start to emerge
from the variation, but any deviation can still be considered totally
normal. It takes many more cycles for the underlying trend to strongly
overcome the variations.

Our human brains tend to have a hard time grasping the notion of
variance, and what we may perceive as being "far from average" might
actually be entirely expected.

A few observations:

-in VP, the median is less than the average, i.e. you're more likely
to have a below average session than an above average session.

-Since big hands are independent, you're more likely to be in a
drought than in a streak.

-99% accuracy is pretty low in JoB. That level of accuracy triples
your average long-term losses. I hope for you that you've been
truncating some decimals. Personally I'm unhappy below 99.95% in JoB,
99.8% in DB. YMMV.

-As far as I'm concerned, I bankroll at least 1.1 royals for a 2-day
week-end of single-line JoB. That's an amount that I wouldn't be
surprised to lose. Since I like to feel comfortable with my bankroll,
I typically give myself an extra margin. With your bankroll and my
rule of thumb, you may be somewhat underbankrolled to play above the
dollar level.

-Playing single-line JoB for an entire week-end, I wouldn't find it
entirely surprising to hit no RF, no SF, and fewer quads and FH than
usual. Within those conditions, I wouldn't be surprised to only see a
95% return over a week-end. Switching denominations increases the
likelihood of such an event happening.

-Never forget that all plays are independent. The fact that you've
been losing in your last few sessions means absolutely nothing for the
future ones: you're still more likely to have a losing session than a
winning one.

JBQ

On 2/21/06, Harry Porter <harry.porter@verizon.net> wrote:

While I don't think any comments I might offer are going to change
your perceptions, I'll note that video poker is far more volatile than
most any player expects
   
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

--
Thanks!
Skip
http://www.vpinsider.com

-I played the Bally's AC IGT 8/5 bonus with royal prog .25 triple
plays as much as anyone in the late 90's, early 2000s ( millions of
$$$ coin in= at least 10K through per week average) and results were
correct Most regular players ( especially overnighters- not bus
patrons) that I observed were close to perfect strategy , some
played 9/6 strategy and/or did not take into account royal progs =
i.e. QJs often much better than QJ8s. I also played 9/6 $1
machines , but without enough stats to truly mathamatically verify.
  My slight losses were offset by great rooms = usuallylarger
corner Tower rooms with big tubs , plus all my meals and some cash
back = doubled once a week. A great deal.

ALL first changed to me when all the Bally's/Caesar's machines were
converted to TITO. The games have also improved in payback lately
all over AC - this makes me wonder even more.
Combine this with harrah's takeover of Bally's implementing
decreased comps and offers and some silly marketing, they have
lost me.
I remember old casino player articles saying "it is cheaper to fly
to Vegas than play in AC". True now for sure, though Vegas is
being cleaned out- but at least you will get rooms and food.

I have been successful with 9/6s @ borgata, but not enough sessions
to give stats, plus comps are low on 9/6's- at least you can drink
for free while playing @ the BBar( not the case in most of AC).
I do not trust VP in either Conn. casinos - foxwoods or Mohegan.

I may have to try out Reno for the last few years we all have left.

Excellent points JBQ.

  I thought I'd run some of this through Dunbar VP Risk Analyzer.

I used

$2 9/6 JB with a 99.9% accuracy (I figured the 99% was a typo) .5%
cashback and 800 hands an hour. I also entered a total of 50 hours

for

the trip (figuring about 5 days at about 10 hours a day). The RoR

for a

$10,000 bankroll was 19%. Leaving everything else the same, I

then

removed the CB, since one might very well be getting only

bounceback,

it's not reflective of the actual cash you would leave with - or
without. RoR goes up to 26%. That's giving the casino a pretty

good shot

at cleaning you out. Then, just in case the 99% was real, I

changed the

hourly loss to reflect that and the RoR jumped up to 50%!

That brought up an interesting point that's somwhat outside the

scope

of this thread (but interesting to me). A lot of folks really do

play at

99% accuracy, even decent enough players who play unfamiliar

games, will

often be playing at this level. We all know that short-term

results are

mostly dependent on luck, but when your RoR can double due to a 1%

error

rate, it's obvious that at least moderately accurate play (better

than

99.5%) is very important, even in the short run.

  If one were playing 9/6 DDB (the game of choice for the "singer
rmethod") instead of 9/6 JB with these parameters, the RoR jumps

to

66%! Of course, using the "Singer Method" will just accelerate

all of

this if you are getting bad cards.

I have no idea about whether the AC machines are OK or not, but I

know

of some very smart people who play there. I'm sure there are

people here

who know about the NJ gaming regs.
Skip

Jean-Baptiste Queru wrote:

>I agree with what Harry said. VP is very volatile.
>
>In general, it makes little sense in gambling to do statistics on

an

>event that is expected to occur less than about 20 to 30 times;

below

>that value the variations are too large for any significant trend

to

>emerge. Around 20 to 30 times, a trend is likely to start to

emerge

>from the variation, but any deviation can still be considered

totally

>normal. It takes many more cycles for the underlying trend to

strongly

>overcome the variations.
>
>Our human brains tend to have a hard time grasping the notion of
>variance, and what we may perceive as being "far from average"

might

>actually be entirely expected.
>
>A few observations:
>
>-in VP, the median is less than the average, i.e. you're more

likely

>to have a below average session than an above average session.
>
>-Since big hands are independent, you're more likely to be in a
>drought than in a streak.
>
>-99% accuracy is pretty low in JoB. That level of accuracy triples
>your average long-term losses. I hope for you that you've been
>truncating some decimals. Personally I'm unhappy below 99.95% in

JoB,

>99.8% in DB. YMMV.
>
>-As far as I'm concerned, I bankroll at least 1.1 royals for a 2-

day

>week-end of single-line JoB. That's an amount that I wouldn't be
>surprised to lose. Since I like to feel comfortable with my

bankroll,

>I typically give myself an extra margin. With your bankroll and my
>rule of thumb, you may be somewhat underbankrolled to play above

the

>dollar level.
>
>-Playing single-line JoB for an entire week-end, I wouldn't find

it

>entirely surprising to hit no RF, no SF, and fewer quads and FH

than

>usual. Within those conditions, I wouldn't be surprised to only

see a

>95% return over a week-end. Switching denominations increases the
>likelihood of such an event happening.
>
>-Never forget that all plays are independent. The fact that you've
>been losing in your last few sessions means absolutely nothing

for the

>future ones: you're still more likely to have a losing session

than a

>winning one.
>
>JBQ
>
>
>
>>While I don't think any comments I might offer are going to

change

>>your perceptions, I'll note that video poker is far more

volatile than

···

.- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Skip Hughes <skiphughes@...> wrote:

>On 2/21/06, Harry Porter <harry.porter@...> wrote:
>>most any player expects
>>
>>
>
>
>vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Thanks!
Skip
http://www.vpinsider.com

9/6 Jacks risk of ruin before royal is 0.999052^bets
1 royal = 0.999052^800 = 47%
2 royals = 0.999052^1600 = 22%
3 royals = 0.999052^2400 = 10%
4 royals = 0.999052^3200 = 5%
5 royals = 0.999052^4000 = 2%
6 royals = 0.999052^4800 = 1%

9/6 Double-Double Bonus risk of ruin before royal is 0.999354^bets
1 royal = 0.999354^800 = 60%
5 royals = 0.999354^4000 = 8%
9 royals = 0.999354^7200 = 1%

teacuplily wrote:
> After constant loosing at vp in AC, I am convinced the video poker
> machines are designed with a secondary program.
> It doesn't seem plausable how I, and other semi pro's, lose every
> time we play in AC.

Ron,

While I don't think any comments I might offer are going to change
your perceptions, I'll note that video poker is far more volatile than
most any player expects -- even relatively low variance games such as
Jacks. And, unfortunately, someone is going to experience that 1 in
1000 (or 1 in 10,000) devastating streak that will seem to belie
statistics but without fail will happen to some unfortunate active

player.

--------

My own AC experiences this last year have left me dizzied. From
Mar-Sep I suffered close to 200,000 hand royal drought at one casino
(I had one hit at another casino during this time that was of small
consequence). I was extremely fortunate that other hands seemed to
come in well within expectation so that cashback and cash bonuses did
much to soften the bankroll damage I'd otherwise have suffered.

Beginning with Labor Day the royals started coming in with greater
than average frequency. The kicker was in early October when I nailed
three in a single day (a first that few I've spoken to have enjoyed).
Things were running pretty fine through to the end of the year when
things again started to sour.

Then, in my last 25,000 hands of play this month, I suffered a loss of
over 1800 bets (2.2 royals). To be honest, I'm more than a little
tramautised and have some trepidation about getting back in the saddle
for fear the the streak might extend with continued vengeance.

--------

Personally, I'm still satisfied that my AC play is on fair machines.
If I had any significant doubts, my remedy would be to cease playing
there.

You've suggested that's exactly what you intend and it's entirely
appropriate. Playing anywhere you're uncomfortable is a fool's

errand.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

Obviously I play at denominations considerably smaller than yours. If
I become concerned with my play experience down the road, the likely
reason will be that I no longer wish to deal with the variance
exposure. I'd cut denomination or, if for some reason that shouldn't
prove a satisfactory alternative, I'll quit.

- Harry