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Aqueduct Racino N.Y. Baccarrat games Random...Might be..

Was in the neighborhood so I stopped in for my second visit to explore the
bac.game
There are about six different bac. stations in the casino( total upstairs and
down stairs). The setup is a big screen or multi screens showing the draws.
Players sit at their own terminals and bet accordingly. Each row contains
anywhere from 6-15 seats and each row has a minimum bet. The back rows are the
least expensive ( $15 /20 min. depending on the station). There is a 5%
commission on a banker win. On two of the stations you can actually see the
eight decks in the stack and the mechanical hand turning them over as the play
progresses. They are read I guess by some sort of optical reader.
I happened to engage in conversation with an employee who worked in one of the
bac.areas. She was very knowledgeable. She absolutely knew about the
non-randomness of the VLT slots/video poker, but said that the bac. games were
truly random. Without disclosing my own observations she reiterated the dealing
of the eight card deck which could be seen at the two largest stations( she said
that the "smaller" stations also dealt from an eight card deck but this was a
virtual stack and couldn't be seen). She did say however, that this was also an
"honest" eight deck stack, hence the commission on a winning banker bet.
In addition, I was also told that many "regulars" had made the same inquiries
and had kept records of every card that came up and were convinced that this was
a Vegas/AC style game !
BTW the back rows with $15 or $20 min. were packed as were the smaller
stations where all rows had these denoms. The only seats available at 12:30 on a
Wed. afternoon were those with $50 minimums !
She also told me that the lower denoms were usually full by 9 or 10 o'clock.
The casino opens at 8:00.

Any comments ?

Larry Feldman

Based on your description, I would say that these games are likely random. It sounds like each station has multiple player spots available for betting on the same outcome - just like a regular bac. game. Since the players have the option of betting either Player or Banker, and since there will presumably be some players betting on Player and some on Banker at the same time, any intentional non-random bias that hurts one side helps the other, so it's hard for the casino to gain anything that way. Also, any intentional non-random bias in this game might be potentially exploitable by observant players. It seems that it would be much more simple and safer for the casino just to deal an honest game and let the built in odds (or commission charge for the Banker) take care of the results.

EE

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lfcmja@..." <lfcmja@...> wrote:

Was in the neighborhood so I stopped in for my second visit to explore the
bac.game>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

EE,
  I agree. Don't get me wrong I think that this is great ! I just was curious how they could offer this game in New York where the VLT's are non-random and non-Indian gaming is illegal ?

Larry F.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "eecounter" <eecounter@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lfcmja@" <lfcmja@> wrote:
>
> Was in the neighborhood so I stopped in for my second visit to explore the
> bac.game>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Based on your description, I would say that these games are likely random. It sounds like each station has multiple player spots available for betting on the same outcome - just like a regular bac. game. Since the players have the option of betting either Player or Banker, and since there will presumably be some players betting on Player and some on Banker at the same time, any intentional non-random bias that hurts one side helps the other, so it's hard for the casino to gain anything that way. Also, any intentional non-random bias in this game might be potentially exploitable by observant players. It seems that it would be much more simple and safer for the casino just to deal an honest game and let the built in odds (or commission charge for the Banker) take care of the results.

EE

I agree. Don't get me wrong I think that this is great ! I just was curious how they could offer this game in New York where the VLT's are non-random and non-Indian gaming is illegal ?

Maybe because they don't use Live dealers.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: lfcmja <lfcmja@verizon.net>
To: vpFREE <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Feb 3, 2012 11:37 am
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Aqueduct Racino N.Y. Baccarrat games Random...Might be..

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "eecounter" <eecounter@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lfcmja@" <lfcmja@> wrote:
>
> Was in the neighborhood so I stopped in for my second visit to explore the
> bac.game>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Based on your description, I would say that these games are likely random. It sounds like each station has multiple player spots available for betting on the same outcome - just like a regular bac. game. Since the players have the option of betting either Player or Banker, and since there will presumably be some players betting on Player and some on Banker at the same time, any intentional non-random bias that hurts one side helps the other, so it's hard for the casino to gain anything that way. Also, any intentional non-random bias in this game might be potentially exploitable by observant players. It seems that it would be much more simple and safer for the casino just to deal an honest game and let the built in odds (or commission charge for the Banker) take care of the results.

EE

EE,
I agree. Don't get me wrong I think that this is great ! I just was curious how they could offer this game in New York where the VLT's are non-random and non-Indian gaming is illegal ?

Larry F.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think I explained , in a previous memo, how easy it would be to write computer software that did a 12% hold , yet looked random. I'm going to guess that its the old bait and switch. It may be fair now, but a quick switch of the ROM's and all of a sudden, everybodys on a losing streak and you give it all back blaming it on short term luck !

···

----- Original Message ----- From: <lfcmja@verizon.net>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 11:36 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Aqueduct Racino N.Y. Baccarrat games Random...Might be..

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "eecounter" <eecounter@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lfcmja@" <lfcmja@> wrote:
>
> Was in the neighborhood so I stopped in for my second visit to explore > the
> bac.game>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Based on your description, I would say that these games are likely random. It sounds like each station has multiple player spots available for betting on the same outcome - just like a regular bac. game. Since the players have the option of betting either Player or Banker, and since there will presumably be some players betting on Player and some on Banker at the same time, any intentional non-random bias that hurts one side helps the other, so it's hard for the casino to gain anything that way. Also, any intentional non-random bias in this game might be potentially exploitable by observant players. It seems that it would be much more simple and safer for the casino just to deal an honest game and let the built in odds (or commission charge for the Banker) take care of the results.

EE

Tom I'm no computer expert at all but I can see the cards being dealt with the mechanical hand. As pointed out by a previous poster bacarrat has people betting on both sides. Unlike for example craps where 99%-100% of all the bettors are on one side so a seven out helps the house immensely.
  I'm thinking there are three possibilities :
1. Tom is right and in fact the game is "fixed" in some way that my dull brain can't realize.
2. The game might technically be illegal in NY but no one has picked it up or cares because it is not a slot/VP machine.
3. It is legal because the player cannot influence the outcome of the game.

  Larry F.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tomflush" <tomflush@...> wrote:

I think I explained , in a previous memo, how easy it would be to write
computer software that did a 12% hold , yet looked random. I'm going to
guess that its the old bait and switch. It may be fair now, but a quick
switch of the ROM's and all of a sudden, everybodys on a losing streak and
you give it all back blaming it on short term luck !

--- >

> I'm thinking there are three possibilities :
1. Tom is right and in fact the game is "fixed" in some way that my dull brain can't realize.
2. The game might technically be illegal in NY but no one has picked it up or cares because it is not a slot/VP machine.
3. It is legal because the player cannot influence the outcome of the game.

  Larry F.

    Larry,
     I just did a search using "Video gaming machines in New York State" and "Video table games in New York State". The first had a link explaining video poker the second a link about table games. I haven't finished reading both articles but it may brighten up my dull brain as to how these machines fit into a lotto based system. The lotto web site has all 5000 VGM's lumped together which leads me to believe everything is somehow programmed to a scratch-off ticket.
      Patmocsd

Most of those sites look like the typical obfuscation, and the more they try to dance around the basic details, the more they are trying to hide.

···

On 2/5/2012 2:19 PM, patmocsd wrote:

--- >
> > I'm thinking there are three possibilities :
> 1. Tom is right and in fact the game is "fixed" in some way that my dull brain can't realize.
> 2. The game might technically be illegal in NY but no one has picked it up or cares because it is not a slot/VP machine.
> 3. It is legal because the player cannot influence the outcome of the game.
>
> Larry F.
>
Larry,
I just did a search using "Video gaming machines in New York State" and "Video table games in New York State". The first had a link explaining video poker the second a link about table games. I haven't finished reading both articles but it may brighten up my dull brain as to how these machines fit into a lotto based system. The lotto web site has all 5000 VGM's lumped together which leads me to believe everything is somehow programmed to a scratch-off ticket.
Patmocsd