vpFREE2 Forums

Another Multi-Play Question

I've got another question, based on the book I'm reading, "Powerful
Profits from Video Poker", by Victor Royer.

But first, referring to my earlier post, Royer does not seem to be
referring to wild card games (Deuces/Joker), but rather "regular
poker". I interpret this as meaning a typical JB game. If so,
Royer's advise is evidently flawed on two counts: (1) the playing
strategy is NOT different for multi-play games, although he says it
is, and (2) he states the recommended strategy choice is to drop the
flush if you also have 4 of an open-ended straight flush, which is
NOT true!

Now, on to my next question. On page 252, Royer provides approximate
bankroll estimates for single play and multi-play games. He doesn't
explain how he arrives at these estimates. Anyway, he suggests $300
for nickel single play and $500 for nickel triple play. Does that
make sense? My understanding is the variance is higher for multi-
play games than for single play games with identical pay schedules.
If that's true, it seems to me the bankroll should be AT LEAST 3
times greater for triple play ($900), if not more. Any opinions?

variance is less for multiplay (for same *total* bet)
for jacks, var = 2 + 18/n
2 is the dealt variance, 18 is the drawn variance
n___var
1___20
3___8
5___5.6
10__3.8
25__2.72
50__2.36
100_2.18
(note: same *total* bet, meaning dollar single play versus quarter 4-
play versus nickel 20-play)
nickel 3-play would require 3 x 8/20 (1.2) as much bankroll as nickel
single play for jacks

I've got another question, based on the book I'm reading, "Powerful
Profits from Video Poker", by Victor Royer.

But first, referring to my earlier post, Royer does not seem to be
referring to wild card games (Deuces/Joker), but rather "regular
poker". I interpret this as meaning a typical JB game. If so,
Royer's advise is evidently flawed on two counts: (1) the playing
strategy is NOT different for multi-play games, although he says it
is, and (2) he states the recommended strategy choice is to drop

the

flush if you also have 4 of an open-ended straight flush, which is
NOT true!

Now, on to my next question. On page 252, Royer provides

approximate

bankroll estimates for single play and multi-play games. He

doesn't

explain how he arrives at these estimates. Anyway, he suggests

$300

for nickel single play and $500 for nickel triple play. Does that
make sense? My understanding is the variance is higher for multi-
play games than for single play games with identical pay

schedules.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...> wrote:

If that's true, it seems to me the bankroll should be AT LEAST 3
times greater for triple play ($900), if not more. Any opinions?

brumar_lv wrote:

I've got another question, based on the book I'm reading, "Powerful
Profits from Video Poker", by Victor Royer.
Now, on to my next question. On page 252, Royer provides approximate
bankroll estimates for single play and multi-play games. He doesn't
explain how he arrives at these estimates. Anyway, he suggests $300
for nickel single play and $500 for nickel triple play.

Bankroll requirements are very dependent on the game being played, (due to
differences in EV and in variance) plus factors such as cashback and other
"cash-equivalent" considerations (promos, etc).

Does that
make sense? My understanding is the variance is higher for multi-
play games than for single play games with identical pay schedules.
If that's true, it seems to me the bankroll should be AT LEAST 3
times greater for triple play ($900), if not more. Any opinions?

First of all, if we are talking about actual bankroll and not trip stake or
session stake, the $300 figure is pretty low for nickels. The $500 figure is
closer for a moderate variance game with a good return (such as FPDW) with,
let's say .5% cashback. But it seems people often have a different idea of
the meaning of "bankroll".

Multiplay only inceases variance due to the bet being larger. The "per-coin"
variance is actually much lower. That's one of the attractions of multiplay.
A rough rule of thumb is that variance increases by about 10% for each
addtional hand. As I said that's a rough estimate and Jazbo Burns* really
doesn't like it, but it gives you an idea.

* Jazbo is the font of all knowledge on the subject. A trip to the video
poker section of http://www.jazbo.com/ will be illuminating.
Thanks,
Skip

Skip hughes
http://www.vphomepage.com

···

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In the book, Royer's bankroll estimates are for a nickel 1-play game
(5 nickels bet) versus a nickel 3-play game (15 nickels bet). In
other words, the "total bet" is not the same.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "aaquad250" <aaquad250@y...> wrote:

variance is less for multiplay (for same *total* bet)<<

"Multiplay only inceases variance due to the bet being larger.
The "per-coin" variance is actually much lower. That's one of the
attractions of multiplay. A rough rule of thumb is that variance
increases by about 10% for each addtional hand. As I said that's a
rough estimate and Jazbo Burns* really doesn't like it, but it gives
you an idea."

I think we should adopt a new convention regarding variance:
absolute vs relative. I recommend when we address questions or
comments about variance, it should be on an absolute sense since our
bankrolls are real, limited and absolute (or at one time was
absolutely higher). This relative concept of "per-coin" variance
confuses people. One case in point is playing $0.25 single line 9/6
JOB at max coins or 5-play $0.05 9/6 JOB at max coins -- in both
cases, the player wagers the sames $1.25, but the variance is not
the same.

Lastly, that rule of thumb follows Moody's N-Play; there is (are?)
multiplay video poker that does NOT increase variance by about 10%
for each additional hand.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Skip Hughes <skip-hughes@e...> wrote:

Bankroll requirements are very dependent on the game being

played, (due to differences in EV and in variance) plus factors such
as cashback and other "cash-equivalent" considerations (promos,
etc).<<

Royer completely ignores these considerations in his bankroll
discussion!

First of all, if we are talking about actual bankroll and not

trip stake or session stake, the $300 figure is pretty low for
nickels. The $500 figure is closer for a moderate variance game with
a good return (such as FPDW) with, let's say .5% cashback. But it
seems people often have a different idea of the meaning
of "bankroll".<<

Royer does not discuss these distinctions (actual bankroll, trip
stake, or session stake). It isn't clear which of these he's talking
about. His discussion of bankroll is very simplistic, and he does
not provide any rationale for his estimates.

Multiplay only inceases variance due to the bet being larger.

The "per-coin" variance is actually much lower. That's one of the
attractions of multiplay. A rough rule of thumb is that variance
increases by about 10% for each additional hand.<<

I'd like to focus on Royer's specific example ($300 for 1-play and
$500 for 3-play). If we assume (for this discussion) his $300 figure
is correct, and variance increases by about 10% for each additional
hand played, then wouldn't it be correct to set the bankroll
requirement for 3-play at (3 x $300) + 10% (or $990)? I'm asking
this question because it's still not clear to me what the "overall"
variance is when playing a 3-play game. For example, if the variance
of 1-play 9/6 JB is 19, are you saying the variance of 3-play 9/6 JB
is 19 + (.10 x 19), or 20.9? I may be over simplifying this. Jazbo
seems to be saying the "increased volatility" people experience when
playing multi-play may be due to increases in the amount gambled in a
given amount of time (a session), rather than any actual difference
in variance.

The N Play page also briefly discusses the affect of multiplay on session stake (volatility) as well. I really like the explanations there even if my lack of mathematical training makes for a tenuous understanding.

···

At 08:13 PM 1/3/2004, you wrote:

First of all, if we are talking about actual bankroll and not trip stake or
session stake, the $300 figure is pretty low for nickels. The $500 figure is
closer for a moderate variance game with a good return (such as FPDW) with,
let's say .5% cashback. But it seems people often have a different idea of
the meaning of "bankroll".

Multiplay only inceases variance due to the bet being larger. The "per-coin"
variance is actually much lower. That's one of the attractions of multiplay.
A rough rule of thumb is that variance increases by about 10% for each
addtional hand. As I said that's a rough estimate and Jazbo Burns* really
doesn't like it, but it gives you an idea.

  I'm asking
this question because it's still not clear to me what the "overall"
variance is when playing a 3-play game. For example, if the variance
of 1-play 9/6 JB is 19, are you saying the variance of 3-play 9/6 JB
is 19 + (.10 x 19), or 20.9? I may be over simplifying this.

Using Jazbo's guide I get a variance of 23.442 for 3play JB. I think that's right. I suggest you not accept my math as gospel:-)

  Jazbo
seems to be saying the "increased volatility" people experience when
playing multi-play may be due to increases in the amount gambled in a
given amount of time (a session), rather than any actual difference
in variance.

True, he discusses "volatility" in terms of session swings, but he discusses increased variance due to the value of the secondary hands being dependent on the flop of the primary hand. Variance is increased and bankroll requirements are increased with multiplay. Session stake requirements are also increased proportionally larger than increases in bankroll might make one guess. This is as I understand it. I'm sure others with better skills than I will correct or expand on my summary as necessary

···

At 11:44 PM 1/3/2004, you wrote:

brumar_lv wrote:

For example, if the variance
of 1-play 9/6 JB is 19, are you saying the variance of 3-play 9/6 JB
is 19 + (.10 x 19), or 20.9?

The rule of thumb would indicate 19 + 3.8 (2 X 1.9) or 22.8. The real
variance is calculated using the covarinace for whatever game is being used.
23.44 (as stated in another note) is correct.
Thanks,
Skip

Skip hughes
http://www.vphomepage.com/

brumar_lv wrote:

> For example, if the variance
> of 1-play 9/6 JB is 19, are you saying the variance of 3-play 9/6

JB

> is 19 + (.10 x 19), or 20.9?

The rule of thumb would indicate 19 + 3.8 (2 X 1.9) or 22.8. The

real

variance is calculated using the covarinace for whatever game is

being used.

23.44 (as stated in another note) is correct.
Thanks,
Skip

Skip hughes
http://www.vphomepage.com/

Thanks for correcting my mistake (I forgot to multiply by 2, for 3-
play)! So I think logically the "proportions" Royer uses (300 for 1-
play and 500 for 3-play) don't make sense, since the overall variance
is higher with 3-play and 3 times the amount is gambled in a
session. It was those "proportions" that puzzled me. Also, as you
said, the $300 figure itself is also questionable ... Royer fails to
define what he means by bankroll.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Skip Hughes <skip-hughes@e...> wrote:

the 10% risk of ruin bankroll for full pay deuces is 3500 units. for
nickel 1-play, this would be 3500 x $.25 = $875. for nickel 3-play
this would be $875 x 1.2 = $1050. (using 10%/line estimate)

10% ror unit bankrolls:
9/6job(rf=1300) 5644
9/6job+1%cashback 3623
10/7db(rf=1100) 5474
10/7db+0.5%cashback 4435
pick'em+0.5%cashback 3518
joker 4169
deuces 3492
all american 3773

Thanks for correcting my mistake (I forgot to multiply by 2, for 3-
play)! So I think logically the "proportions" Royer uses (300 for

1-

play and 500 for 3-play) don't make sense, since the overall

variance

is higher with 3-play and 3 times the amount is gambled in a
session. It was those "proportions" that puzzled me. Also, as you
said, the $300 figure itself is also questionable ... Royer fails

to

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...> wrote:

define what he means by bankroll.

This is the RoR number for the max-EV strategy. Using a min-risk
strategy reduces this bankroll requirement to 5516 units. The ER
from the min-risk strategy is reduced from 100.9528% (max-EV) to
100.9068%. Another way to look at this is that using the min-risk
strategy with a 5644 unit bankroll reduces RoR from 10% to 9.48%.

···

On Sunday 04 January 2004 11:55 am, aaquad250 wrote:

the 10% risk of ruin bankroll for full pay deuces is 3500 units. for
nickel 1-play, this would be 3500 x $.25 = $875. for nickel 3-play
this would be $875 x 1.2 = $1050. (using 10%/line estimate)

10% ror unit bankrolls:
9/6job(rf=1300) 5644

agreed
my non-progressive numbers are actually a little low because my
strategies are sorokin optimized
a good calculator is here:
http://www.gamblingtools.net/vp/vpanalyzer.html
these are max-ev strategy 10% ror numbers:
deuces (+.76%,var26): 3525
all american (+.72%,var27): 3909
joker (+.65%,var26): 4289

how many strategies are there now?
max-ev, low-risk, short-coin, min-rf-cost, sorokin-optimized ...

min-risk doesn't sound right, cause min-risk would be to not play at
all, correct?

oh, for the philosophy types, i have another strategy, zen strategy,
a long time ago krishna said the key to happiness is to relinquish
the fruits of your desire, meaning don't play for the royal, but if
it hits of course you accept the money - you can generate this
strategy yourself by setting rf=0 in your strategy generator and
seeing what happens (turns out if you ignore the royal, you still hit
it!)

> the 10% risk of ruin bankroll for full pay deuces is 3500 units.

for

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Steve Jacobs <jacobs@x> wrote:

On Sunday 04 January 2004 11:55 am, aaquad250 wrote:
> nickel 1-play, this would be 3500 x $.25 = $875. for nickel 3-play
> this would be $875 x 1.2 = $1050. (using 10%/line estimate)
>
> 10% ror unit bankrolls:
> 9/6job(rf=1300) 5644

This is the RoR number for the max-EV strategy. Using a min-risk
strategy reduces this bankroll requirement to 5516 units. The ER
from the min-risk strategy is reduced from 100.9528% (max-EV) to
100.9068%. Another way to look at this is that using the min-risk
strategy with a 5644 unit bankroll reduces RoR from 10% to 9.48%.

aaquad250 wrote:

agreed
my non-progressive numbers are actually a little low because my
strategies are sorokin optimized
a good calculator is here:
http://www.gamblingtools.net/vp/vpanalyzer.html

snip

What is "Sorokin Optimized"? Went to the above-line and couldn't find anything there about it.

Thanks.

Bill Velek

agreed
my non-progressive numbers are actually a little low because my
strategies are sorokin optimized

I'm curious as to what you mean by "a little low" in regards to
"sorokin optimized". The formula that Sorokin "re-discovered"
yields exact values for Risk of Ruin, and the numbers I quote
for min-risk are based on that approach.

a good calculator is here:
http://www.gamblingtools.net/vp/vpanalyzer.html
these are max-ev strategy 10% ror numbers:
deuces (+.76%,var26): 3525
all american (+.72%,var27): 3909
joker (+.65%,var26): 4289

how many strategies are there now?
max-ev, low-risk, short-coin, min-rf-cost, sorokin-optimized ...

min-risk doesn't sound right, cause min-risk would be to not play at
all, correct?

Yes, but "minimize risk for a player who is forced to play anyway"
takes too much typing :slight_smile:

I use the term "min-risk" because I don't like to call it "min-RoR". The
strategy that minimizes RoR does so much more, such as maximizing
the probability of reaching any fixed goal from any fixed starting point.
I'm open to calling it something else, but it is probably equivalent
to what you call "sorokin-optimized".

oh, for the philosophy types, i have another strategy, zen strategy,
a long time ago krishna said the key to happiness is to relinquish
the fruits of your desire, meaning don't play for the royal, but if
it hits of course you accept the money - you can generate this
strategy yourself by setting rf=0 in your strategy generator and
seeing what happens (turns out if you ignore the royal, you still hit
it!)

I don't think using rf=0 is the same as "ignoring" the royal. Rather,
it is equating a royal with losing, which is clearly a bad thing rather
than a neutral event that can be ignored. I've played with a strategy
that might be like ignoring a royal, and is sort of the compliment to
the min-cost(royal) strategy where the royal payoff "absorbs" all
of the disparity between a breakeven game and actual payoff
schedule. For the "ignore the royal" case, you treat royal payoffs
as if they conprize a fair subgame, and let all the other payoffs
share the loss (or gain) due to the game.

I've developed a powerful method for expressing strategies in
terms of a "virtual payoff schedule". I plan to write up an article
eventually, but for now I'm still experimenting with some programs
to explore the "space" of alternate strategies.

···

On Sunday 04 January 2004 03:46 pm, aaquad250 wrote:

find anything there about it.

<SNIP>

Check out this article for a good summary:
http://www.gamblingtimes.com/writers/dpaymar/dpaymar2_summer2002.html
Sorokin refers to Evgeny Sorokin.

There are three other important article that I recommend (must have
for die hard video poker fans):

1) "Bounds on gambler's ruin probabilities in terms of moments" by
S.N. Ethier and Davar Khoshnevisan

2) "Gambler's ruin revisited: The Effects of skew and large
jackpots" by R.M. Canjar from University of Detriot Mercy.

3) "Risk of ruin for video poker and other skewed-up games" by H.
Dunbar and Mathboy(?) -- Fall 1999 "BJ Forum" -- considered by many
to be a seminal work. However, my camp would give credit to Jazbo
because he was the first person that I was aware of that posted risk
of ruin numbers on his website long before Dunbar and Mathboy(?)
article. In fact, if you looked at Jazbo's website, Jazbo freely
dessiminated the algorithm to solve for risk ruin [look in Poker
page and search under "Kelly Computation" Jazbo stated:

"The Kelly method provides, for any gambling bet and a given
bankroll, an amount that is optimal in the sense that the expected
growth of your bankroll will be higher or lower than optimal if you
bet more or less than the Kelly number. The Perl script given below
will compute the Kelly number for any bet, assuming you have
accurate numbers for the probabilities of each outcome.

Documentation is included in-line in the script, but basically you
need to know what the probabilities are for each possible outcome
for a gambling event. The assumption is that you are betting one
unit. You need the probabilities for losing that unit, for tieing
(pushing), winning 1 unit, winning 2 units, etc. A novel feature of
the script is that it will also allow you to include any cash back
you may be getting on the bet (most useful for video poker)."

The copyrighted date in the software was 10/25/97.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:

What is "Sorokin Optimized"? Went to the above-line and couldn't

What is "Sorokin Optimized"? Went to the above-line and couldn't

find

anything there about it.

Thanks.

Bill Velek

you have to solve for the sorokin number R(1) first
the equation is: R(1)= sum(Pi x R(1)^Wi)
where Pi is the hand probability and Wi is the win value
you sum this for each winning hand, i.e, rf, sf, quad ... and also
the no win hand
the result, R(1) is also an input to the equation, so you have to
iterate to find the solution, but this can be done using a spreadsheet
for double bonus you get a number like .99988
this number can be used to determine your risk of ruin for any
bankroll using the following formula:
ror=R(1)^Bankroll
for example, for a bankroll of 10,000 units:
ror=.99988^10,000=.3=30%
with R(1) we can also solve for optimum bankroll growth
to do this, we use this formula to adjust each payout:
Wnew=(1-R(1)^Wold)/(1-R(1))
for example, for the royal:
Wnew=(1-.99988^800)/(1-.99988)=763
plug these new values into a strategy generator, like vpsm, and you
get the sorokin optimized strategy
on this example, double bonus, not much changes, because the game is
barely positive, but, for example, on a game like all american or
with strong cashback you get quite a few changes

bottom line, with regards to bankroll growth, the high value payoffs
are overvalued for the risk involved

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:

the 10% risk of ruin bankroll for full pay deuces is 3500 units.

for nickel 1-play, this would be 3500 x $.25 = $875. for nickel 3-
play this would be $875 x 1.2 = $1050. (using 10%/line estimate)

10% ror unit bankrolls:
9/6job(rf=1300) 5644
9/6job+1%cashback 3623
10/7db(rf=1100) 5474
10/7db+0.5%cashback 4435
pick'em+0.5%cashback 3518
joker 4169
deuces 3492
all american 3773

I get the feeling, after reading all the responses to my original
post, I won't get a direct answer as to whether the "bankroll
proportions" ($300 for 1-play $500 for 3-play) in Royer's book are
valid. The reason: it can't be answered because it depends on the
playing strategy objective, the return and variance of a game,
and "comps", like cash back. It appears (based on the RoR
calculation above) a $300 bankroll is far too low, for any 5-coin
nickel game. However, it also appears Royer's $300/$500 proportions
may be fairly accurate, and that surprises me. I thought it would be
more like $300/$1000.

I've concluded it's fruitless to critique Royer's bankroll estimates
in greater detail because he didn't provide enough background info to
do it! All I can conclude is (1) the $300 and $500 bankrolls are too
low for 1-play and 3-play nickel games, and (2) using a single figure
for EVERY 5-coin nickel game isn't valid, especially if the return is
low (as most are).

Thanks for all the feedback .. it was very interesting. The bankroll
issue, clearly, has been analyzed in great detail using some pretty
sophisticated methods!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "aaquad250" <aaquad250@y...> wrote:

> What is "Sorokin Optimized"? Went to the above-line and couldn't

find

> anything there about it.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Velek

you have to solve for the sorokin number R(1) first
the equation is: R(1)= sum(Pi x R(1)^Wi)
where Pi is the hand probability and Wi is the win value
you sum this for each winning hand, i.e, rf, sf, quad ... and also
the no win hand
the result, R(1) is also an input to the equation, so you have to
iterate to find the solution, but this can be done using a spreadsheet
for double bonus you get a number like .99988

Or 0.9998757753249636, to be more precise.

this number can be used to determine your risk of ruin for any
bankroll using the following formula:
ror=R(1)^Bankroll
for example, for a bankroll of 10,000 units:
ror=.99988^10,000=.3=30%
with R(1) we can also solve for optimum bankroll growth
to do this, we use this formula to adjust each payout:
Wnew=(1-R(1)^Wold)/(1-R(1))
for example, for the royal:
Wnew=(1-.99988^800)/(1-.99988)=763

This is what I refer to as "virtual payoffs". Using the more precise R
gives 761.57786 for the virtual payoff of the royal flush.

plug these new values into a strategy generator, like vpsm, and you
get the sorokin optimized strategy

Actually, you may have to iterate over this process a few times in
order to get an optimal solution. This gives the strategy that I
call "min-risk". You'll know the solution is optimal because the
min-risk strategy has one other special property -- the optimized
strategy with the virtual payoffs gives a virtual return that is
exactly 100.000000000%. In other words, a breakeven game.

Any departure from the min-risk strategy will cause RoR to increase.

on this example, double bonus, not much changes, because the game is
barely positive, but, for example, on a game like all american or
with strong cashback you get quite a few changes

bottom line, with regards to bankroll growth, the high value payoffs
are overvalued for the risk involved

For favorable games, the virtual payoffs are all less than (or equal, for
a payoff that amouts to a push) the real payoffs. For unfavorable games,
the virtual payoffs are all greater than or equal to the real payoffs.

The concept of virtual payoffs, combined with a specific mathematical
expression that relates real payoffs to virtual payoffs based on some
parameter (I usually call the parameter R), can be used to find optimal
strategies for a wide variety of "perspectives" on what is meant by
the word "optimal".

This whole process can be framed in mathematical terms to show that
games such as VP can be "decomposed" into subgames that give a
representation that is mathematically equivalent to the original game.
This decomposition can be performed in a virtually infinite variety of
ways.

In a previous post, titled "Equivalent Games", I showed how to
reduce an 8/5 JoB VP game into several subgames that were each
based on a series of coin flips of the same biased coin. This was
based on a "risk" representation, and demonstrates that the
risk representation of a strategy reduces the strategy to a
random walk based on a biased coin. Among all possible
representations of a given strategy, only the risk representation
allows the same biased coin to determine the outcome of all
payoffs.

Strategies such as min-cost (for overall cost), min-cost(royal), and
min-cost(whatever-payoff) can all be derived using the concept of
virtual payoff scedules. In all cases, the optimal strategy is found
by adjusting the virtual payoffs and plugging them into a strategy
optimizer, and iterating over those two steps until the strategy
optimizer yields a strategy that gives a breakeven game.

Breakeven games have (at least) one very special property. For
a breakeven game, each payoff occurs just often enough to pay
for the cost of that payoff.

I've been developing the concept of virtual payoff schedules over
the last few months. I'm still doing a lot of experimenting with the idea,
but it is producing a lot of interesting results.

···

On Sunday 04 January 2004 08:39 pm, aaquad250 wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:

have you read Dan Paymar's "Video Poker - Optimum Play"?
it's the best
many libraries have a copy of his older version, Precision Play

>> the 10% risk of ruin bankroll for full pay deuces is 3500 units.
for nickel 1-play, this would be 3500 x $.25 = $875. for nickel 3-
play this would be $875 x 1.2 = $1050. (using 10%/line estimate)
>
> 10% ror unit bankrolls:
> 9/6job(rf=1300) 5644
> 9/6job+1%cashback 3623
> 10/7db(rf=1100) 5474
> 10/7db+0.5%cashback 4435
> pick'em+0.5%cashback 3518
> joker 4169
> deuces 3492
> all american 3773
>
I get the feeling, after reading all the responses to my original
post, I won't get a direct answer as to whether the "bankroll
proportions" ($300 for 1-play $500 for 3-play) in Royer's book are
valid. The reason: it can't be answered because it depends on the
playing strategy objective, the return and variance of a game,
and "comps", like cash back. It appears (based on the RoR
calculation above) a $300 bankroll is far too low, for any 5-coin
nickel game. However, it also appears Royer's $300/$500

proportions

may be fairly accurate, and that surprises me. I thought it would

be

more like $300/$1000.

I've concluded it's fruitless to critique Royer's bankroll

estimates

in greater detail because he didn't provide enough background info

to

do it! All I can conclude is (1) the $300 and $500 bankrolls are

too

low for 1-play and 3-play nickel games, and (2) using a single

figure

for EVERY 5-coin nickel game isn't valid, especially if the return

is

low (as most are).

Thanks for all the feedback .. it was very interesting. The

bankroll

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "aaquad250" <aaquad250@y...> wrote:
issue, clearly, has been analyzed in great detail using some pretty
sophisticated methods!