vpFREE2 Forums

...and you thought 8/5 JOB was a bad game!

#21

looks like a frugalvp bug
the short coin return is the computer optimum return only and doesn't
adjust to the strategy

nightoftheiguana2000 wrote:

> > nightoftheiguana2000 wrote:
> >
> > > typical 9/6 jacks or better strategy:
> > > >4-3RF>HP>2P>4FL>LP>2RF>4STo>3-1H
> > > according to frugalvp:
> > > maxbet er=.9622
> > > onebet er=.9837
> >
> > I'm assuming that what you've got there is your own custom
> strategy, and
> > I'll take your word for the ER's that result from its use

because I

> > don't feel like playing around to confirm them.
> >
> > First, why do you receive a higher ER when betting max-coin

versus

> > single-coin ...?

snip

> higher ER for short coin
> i'm sure the strategy has something to do with it, lol

Right. I twisted it around ass-backwards. What I meant to ask was

why

the single-coin has a higher ER than the max-coin; it doesn't make

sense

because as long as there is any sort of a premium or bonus paid for

any

hand during full-coin play, that makes it impossible to develop any

sort

of a strategy that would _ever_ result in a higher ER for short-

coin

than full-coin. This is because by merely using the identical
short-coin strategy when playing full-coin, you get the identical

return

except when you hit the bonus hands, like the Royal, at which point

the

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:

> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:
ER for the full-coin immediately surpasses the short-coin.

Bill Velek

#22

<<looks like a frugalvp bug
the short coin return is the computer optimum return only and doesn't
adjust to the strategy>>

I haven't been following this discussion. Could someone explain what they think is the problem so I can forward it on to Jim Wolf. He is quick to fix all bugs - if indeed it is a bug. I don't know enough details to explain it to him.

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards and for the
  Frugal series of books.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#23

Jean Scott wrote:

I haven't been following this discussion. Could someone explain what
they think is the problem so I can forward it on to Jim Wolf. He is
quick to fix all bugs - if indeed it is a bug. I don't know enough
details to explain it to him.

Jean, from what I can see the difficulty is that the software
maintains a strategy table for 5 coins distinct from 1-4 coins. The
problem is that it appears that you can only "tweak" the 5 coin table.

Thus, when you tweak a strategy and analyze it, only the 5 coin return
is adjusted. The reported 1-4 coin return is unchanged.

It may be the case that there's a way to separately tweak the
short-coin paytable, but I don't see it.

A fix would first entail removing the option to inherit a separate
straegy chart for short-coin play from that used for full-coin play.
(Not sure under what circumstances you would want this.)

Then it would be assured that the same strategy chart were in use for
both full-coin and short-coin play. Then, the next fix would be to
revise the tweak option so that it applied to the uniform strategy and
calculated both modified returns off the same tweaked strategy.

- Harry

#24

FVP does hold a different 1-4 credit strategy from the 5 credit
strategy because the strategies are different due to the lower royal
value with 1-4 credits. This is also why they must be tweaked
seperately.

You can select which strategy to tweak by going to the "View" menu
and clicking "5 Credit Chart" or "1-4 Credit Chart". Make your
changes and then click the "Analyze" button. If you changed both
charts, the results of the tweaking will be displayed for both
charts.

Most people just ignore the 1-4 credit payoff table. For example,
people in this group know to play max credits due to the higher EV.
However, people new to VP may not realize this, and hard evidence
must be introduced to convince them - thus the 1-4 credit charts
with the shorted royal, as in an actual casino. Also, if you do play
1-4 credits, the strategy can, and usually does, change
significantly.

When you inherit a chart from another machine (Ex: 10/7 DB
inheriting JB 9/6 chart) both the 1-4 and 5 credit tables are
inherited.

If you want to make the 1-4 credit chart equal to the 5 credit
chart, create a new machine and change the shorted royal value to
800.

While tweaking charts, it is best to make one change at a time in
order to see the effect of the tweaking. If you have the 1-4 credit
chart equivalent to the 5 credit chart, you can make 2 changes
independent of each other, and see the results with one "Analyze"
process.

Jim

Jean, from what I can see the difficulty is that the software
maintains a strategy table for 5 coins distinct from 1-4 coins.

The

problem is that it appears that you can only "tweak" the 5 coin

table.

Thus, when you tweak a strategy and analyze it, only the 5 coin

return

is adjusted. The reported 1-4 coin return is unchanged.

It may be the case that there's a way to separately tweak the
short-coin paytable, but I don't see it.

A fix would first entail removing the option to inherit a separate
straegy chart for short-coin play from that used for full-coin

play.

(Not sure under what circumstances you would want this.)

Then it would be assured that the same strategy chart were in use

for

both full-coin and short-coin play. Then, the next fix would be to
revise the tweak option so that it applied to the uniform strategy

and

···

calculated both modified returns off the same tweaked strategy.

- Harry

#25

fvpwolf wrote:

FVP does hold a different 1-4 credit strategy from the 5 credit
strategy because the strategies are different due to the lower royal
value with 1-4 credits. This is also why they must be tweaked
seperately.

Jim, that makes perfect sense (and should have been apparent to me
from the start).

However, had you not walked me through the steps to tweak both charts
I would never have figured it out on my own.

That, of course, reflects the fact that because there are many options
in the software, menuing is necessarily complex. However, there are
more than a couple of areas where I've had comparable troubles in
figuring out how to accomplish a task. An extensive review of the
manus/buttons might be appropriate. I expect that the sequence of
some common tasks can be streamlined/channeled so the proper steps are
more apparent.

- Harry