vpFREE2 Forums

After three years I finally realized something (slap!)

#1

I have had experiences on various VP boards and newsgroups,
including VPFree, Skip Hughes' group, the LVA message boards, etc.
that have puzzled and angered me; a friend of mine, who no longer
posts on this or any other board due to experiences similar to mine
(but orders of magnitude worse), concurs in this idea. To wit:

We have been deeply suspicious for several years about the honesty
and randomness of casino VP machines. We have posted both specific
observations and data on anomalous results that were drawn from not
only our own experiences, but several other high-level VP players'
as well. The basic conclusion that we have both drawn, and often
articulated, is that there's far too much smoke for there not to be
some fire.

Whenever we do post something on this or some other board that
suggests that something may not be on the up-and-up, we not only are
routinely excoriated and insulted publicly by board members, but we
also receive a flood of insulting and on occasion threatening e-mail
from various and sundry characters, most of whose nom de plumes we
don't recognize. This has puzzled us (as well as disgusted us),
because our basic thought is: who out there is so in love with the
casinos that they want to take up the sword for them and battle us,
the blasphemers? We don't publish vague suspicions; we enumerate
FACTS and RESULTS that should give any serious player pause. The
emotionalism and vehemence of the reactions have frankly surprised
us.

The conclusion hit me in a blinding flash just today, after all this
time: THERE ARE CASINO EMPLOYEES (or "consultants") LURKING on this
and other VP information pipelines, and their jobs are not only to
passively listen and gather data, but to detect who the strong and
successful players are, with the hope of cross-matching their info
and possibly barring them, and IF INFORMATION WHICH MIGHT BE HARMFUL
TO THEIR MASTERS' INTERESTS is posted, it's their job to weaken its
dissemination by flooding the boards and our e-mail inboxes with
ridicule and invective. This is the cyber equivalent of being
shouted down at the town meeting!

I suppose nothing much can be done about these worms; after all,
they could be working out of their homes ("consultants") rather than
in a casino itself, so tracing IP addresses would be futile even if
someone wanted to go to the trouble.

I'd like to know if anybody is interested in forming a secure
version of this board, one that screens its members CAREFULLY to
weed out any casino affiliation. Don't ask me how we'd do this. If
we could manage it, we could also post good plays for the benefit of
other board members without having them instantly destroyed as a
direct result, which is what happens now.

In this era of disappearing plays and increased casino
countermeasures, we have to adopt a defensive stance, while working
together to make sure we maximize what opportunities remain.
Thoughts?

#2

rockofjello333 wrote:

We have been deeply suspicious for several years about the honesty
and randomness of casino VP machines. We have posted both specific
observations and data on anomalous results that were drawn from not
only our own experiences, but several other high-level VP players'
as well. The basic conclusion that we have both drawn, and often
articulated, is that there's far too much smoke for there not to be
some fire.

I really suggest the two of you take up some other pasttime ... maybe
knitting? Why would anyone in their right mind put $1000's at risk if
they had this level of concern about game fairness?

As far as the threat of casino employee lurkers ... I have no doubt
it's a reality. Dancer advocates that casino managers do just this to
keep a pulse on whether they may be seriously screwing something up.

But any casino employee who'd take time out to lob a few insults in
your direction, or anyone else's for that matter, is a nobody who has
too much time on their hands. Frankly, I'm surprised at your concern
here given the extent to which you go at times to invite the throwing
of a few grenades.

"Rock" (and whatever your past incarnations in these groups), it
should be clear that I don't mess around with an alias. Perhaps I'm
naive and it'll eventually bite me in the ass. But this is a pasttime
and the last thing I'm out to do is make a profit on vp.

My point is simply that I pretty much lay things out for what they
are. I don't think there's much of anything I might express that a
casino manager would have the slightest interest in (... on more than
one occasion the universe of those with no interest has been far
larger ;).

I've too much a life to sweat what might happen or who lurks here (...
well, don't look for me to post an address or phone number anytime soon :wink:

- Harry

#3

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333"
<rockofjello333@y...> wrote:
"I have had experiences on various VP boards and newsgroups,
including VPFree, Skip Hughes' group, the LVA message boards, etc.
that have puzzled and angered me; a friend of mine, who no longer
posts on this or any other board due to experiences similar to mine
(but orders of magnitude worse), concurs in this idea. To wit:

We have been deeply suspicious for several years about the honesty
and randomness of casino VP machines. We have posted both specific
observations and data on anomalous results that were drawn from not
only our own experiences, but several other high-level VP players'
as well. The basic conclusion that we have both drawn, and often
articulated, is that there's far too much smoke for there not to be
some fire."

As a video poker advantage player turned gaming analyst / game
designer, I can say with a strong conviction from both sides of the
fence that there is no such thing as truly random vp machines.
There are vp machines that employ software that simulates psuedo-
randomness. Perhaps rockofjello333 or his un-named buddy has a hang-
up with psuedo-randomness.

In all seriousness, the games made by reputable manufacturers are
honest and sufficiently random-equese to pass established
regulations. Additionally, there are game designers who try to give
players a fair shot by providing games close to 100% returns.
Nonetheless, it is important to point out that it is the casinos
that ultimately choose the machines and corresponding pay-tables.
And, to a lesser extent, the casino plopplies generally want games
with high variance, other things being equal, to have a good shot at
a big hit. Lastly, returns I've worked with are generally
calculated over ten-million hand cycles, which means most individual
player statistics kept would not be sufficient.

#4

While I can't be certain that ALL VP is fair and random, my results and the results of probably 30 heavy players (that I personally know) seem to indicate that it is fair, at least in the vast majority of Nevada casinos. I have played the game since about 1990 with increasing frequency until about two years ago when opportunities declined.

I have experienced many periods of very bad return from VP, but my long term results are very favourable. The bad runs have been offest by some incredibly rewarding "lucky streaks". One of my favorite memories is the 6 hour session of double bonus where I won 2400 betting units ($1.25 for quarters, but thankfully, I was playing higher).

I'm sorry that you feel you have been attacked for your viewpoint. I strongly disaprove of anyone who would resort to such ad hominem attacks. Such abuse from members of this list should be brought to the attention of the administrator (thankless job that it is).

···

From: "rockofjello333" <rockofjello333@yahoo.com> wrote:

We have been deeply suspicious for several years about the honesty
and randomness of casino VP machines. We have posted both specific
observations and data on anomalous results that were drawn from not
only our own experiences, but several other high-level VP players'
as well. The basic conclusion that we have both drawn, and often
articulated, is that there's far too much smoke for there not to be
some fire.

Whenever we do post something on this or some other board that
suggests that something may not be on the up-and-up, we not only are
routinely excoriated and insulted publicly by board members, but we
also receive a flood of insulting and on occasion threatening e-mail
from various and sundry characters, most of whose nom de plumes we
don't recognize. This has puzzled us (as well as disgusted us),
because our basic thought is: who out there is so in love with the
casinos that they want to take up the sword for them and battle us,
the blasphemers? We don't publish vague suspicions; we enumerate
FACTS and RESULTS that should give any serious player pause. The
emotionalism and vehemence of the reactions have frankly surprised
us.

#5

ok we can put them on double secret probation and make them sign in
blood...aka its called the phone..and one to one chat my friend.
assume anything here is going to mr trump and amorosa

···

_____

From: rockofjello333 [mailto:rockofjello…@…com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:00 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] After three years I finally realized something (slap!)

I have had experiences on various VP boards and newsgroups,
including VPFree, Skip Hughes' group, the LVA message boards, etc.
that have puzzled and angered me; a friend of mine, who no longer
posts on this or any other board due to experiences similar to mine
(but orders of magnitude worse), concurs in this idea. To wit:

We have been deeply suspicious for several years about the honesty
and randomness of casino VP machines. We have posted both specific
observations and data on anomalous results that were drawn from not
only our own experiences, but several other high-level VP players'
as well. The basic conclusion that we have both drawn, and often
articulated, is that there's far too much smoke for there not to be
some fire.

Whenever we do post something on this or some other board that
suggests that something may not be on the up-and-up, we not only are
routinely excoriated and insulted publicly by board members, but we
also receive a flood of insulting and on occasion threatening e-mail
from various and sundry characters, most of whose nom de plumes we
don't recognize. This has puzzled us (as well as disgusted us),
because our basic thought is: who out there is so in love with the
casinos that they want to take up the sword for them and battle us,
the blasphemers? We don't publish vague suspicions; we enumerate
FACTS and RESULTS that should give any serious player pause. The
emotionalism and vehemence of the reactions have frankly surprised
us.

The conclusion hit me in a blinding flash just today, after all this
time: THERE ARE CASINO EMPLOYEES (or "consultants") LURKING on this
and other VP information pipelines, and their jobs are not only to
passively listen and gather data, but to detect who the strong and
successful players are, with the hope of cross-matching their info
and possibly barring them, and IF INFORMATION WHICH MIGHT BE HARMFUL
TO THEIR MASTERS' INTERESTS is posted, it's their job to weaken its
dissemination by flooding the boards and our e-mail inboxes with
ridicule and invective. This is the cyber equivalent of being
shouted down at the town meeting!

I suppose nothing much can be done about these worms; after all,
they could be working out of their homes ("consultants") rather than
in a casino itself, so tracing IP addresses would be futile even if
someone wanted to go to the trouble.

I'd like to know if anybody is interested in forming a secure
version of this board, one that screens its members CAREFULLY to
weed out any casino affiliation. Don't ask me how we'd do this. If
we could manage it, we could also post good plays for the benefit of
other board members without having them instantly destroyed as a
direct result, which is what happens now.

In this era of disappearing plays and increased casino
countermeasures, we have to adopt a defensive stance, while working
together to make sure we maximize what opportunities remain.
Thoughts?

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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#6

This is not a flame, but your "theory" does not explain why so many of us
are net positive playing VP. And these people are not casino employees,
either. In fairness, I'll state that I am attempting to obtain an executive
position with one of the gaming companies. Everyone who knows me knows
this. If I obtain such a position I will post the fact to these boards. It
is clear from a business standpoint that a symbiotic relationship between
advantage players and the casinos benefits both.

You may not understand how randomness works, and how cold streaks can seem
interminable. But if the casinos are gaffing their plays they are not very
good at it, judging by my own experience. Certainly there are a lot of
ignorant and paranoid people out there running casinos just as there are
many suspicious and paranoid people playing in them. If you really believe
you are being cheated you should stop playing immediately and give your
evidence to Gaming. If you think all the casino companies and Gaming are
all in cahoots you should stop playing permanently. Run many simulations on
WinPoker and you'll see many situations that appear to be suspicious and
correspond to anecdotal evidence reported by many people

Please remember that casinos tend to hold over 6% of the millions put
through the machines. What would be the point of cheating?

Bill

···

At 03:59 PM 09/08/2004, you wrote:

I have had experiences on various VP boards and newsgroups,
including VPFree, Skip Hughes' group, the LVA message boards, etc.
that have puzzled and angered me; a friend of mine, who no longer
posts on this or any other board due to experiences similar to mine

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#7

Bill Coleman wrote:

It is clear from a business standpoint that a symbiotic relationship
between advantage players and the casinos benefits both.

Oh, wow. And to think that I worry about being naive :wink:

- H.

#8

Most of us players that have been playing for years are all ahead of
the game. I have never worked and managed to make a living playing since
1994. However, this particular year seems to be the worst I have ever
seen. I would like to know if other players are doing well this year. If
the majority are, I would feel better. I have been hearing a lot of bad
luck stories. I play 5 nights a week roughly and have hit 2 royals all
year! Not only that, I can never ever book a win anymore. Just very
strange to me, is all. Are the majority of you doing okay this year.
Thanks, Jodie. Boyfriend managed to win the Montelago video poker
tournament but as far as the machines, forget it. Just another 10k to
lose. Thanks Again. Jodie

···

-----Original Message-----
From: LVGamb00ler [mailto:lvgamb00…@…net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 4:29 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] After three years I finally realized something
(slap!)

While I can't be certain that ALL VP is fair and random, my results
and the results of probably 30 heavy players (that I personally know)
seem to indicate that it is fair, at least in the vast majority of
Nevada casinos. I have played the game since about 1990 with
increasing frequency until about two years ago when opportunities
declined.

I have experienced many periods of very bad return from VP, but my
long term results are very favourable. The bad runs have been offest
by some incredibly rewarding "lucky streaks". One of my favorite
memories is the 6 hour session of double bonus where I won 2400
betting units ($1.25 for quarters, but thankfully, I was playing
higher).

I'm sorry that you feel you have been attacked for your viewpoint. I
strongly disaprove of anyone who would resort to such ad hominem
attacks. Such abuse from members of this list should be brought to
the attention of the administrator (thankless job that it is).

From: "rockofjello333" <rockofjello333@yahoo.com> wrote:

We have been deeply suspicious for several years about the honesty
and randomness of casino VP machines. We have posted both specific
observations and data on anomalous results that were drawn from not
only our own experiences, but several other high-level VP players'
as well. The basic conclusion that we have both drawn, and often
articulated, is that there's far too much smoke for there not to be
some fire.

Whenever we do post something on this or some other board that
suggests that something may not be on the up-and-up, we not only are
routinely excoriated and insulted publicly by board members, but we
also receive a flood of insulting and on occasion threatening e-mail
from various and sundry characters, most of whose nom de plumes we
don't recognize. This has puzzled us (as well as disgusted us),
because our basic thought is: who out there is so in love with the
casinos that they want to take up the sword for them and battle us,
the blasphemers? We don't publish vague suspicions; we enumerate
FACTS and RESULTS that should give any serious player pause. The
emotionalism and vehemence of the reactions have frankly surprised
us.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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#9

... snip

To wit:

We have been deeply suspicious for several years about the honesty
and randomness of casino VP machines. We have posted both specific
observations and data on anomalous results that were drawn from

not

only our own experiences, but several other high-level VP players'
as well. The basic conclusion that we have both drawn, and often
articulated, is that there's far too much smoke for there not to

be

some fire.

... snip

No matter what anyone tells you the answer is: grassy knoll.
Seriously, you get flamed because your premise is silly. If you
really feel you're being cheated stop playing. Continuing to
collect "data" on what you perceive to be fixed games is akin to
letting me continually punch you in the head as you decide if I'm
your friend or not. There are many people currently exploring the
mysteries of area 51 ( the military base not the bad lounge act ) go
join them. I'm certain they already have a secure message group in
place that excludes all aliens.

#10

I'm not quite sure I understand what you are alleging. I certainly
think there is the possibility that casinos are monitoring this
board and other sites for information about video poker players. I
am sure they are researching video poker and video poker
professionals because I would if I was them, and they are a lot
smarter than me. It is in their interest to know as much about
players as possible.

I really don't think that the machines are manipulated to behave in
ways different than pay schedules read. If there were, the casinos
would have no real incentive to remove the positive expectations
machines. In fact they would have an incentive to put as many
positive expectation games on the floor, and then manipulate the
chips. So I think that the disappearance of good vp pay tables is
evidence that the casinos are not manipulating the chips.

In terms of good plays dissapearing, the board is too large to post
plays. Any good play is going to last as long as it does not
bankrupt the casino. But when a great play is posted here, many
people find out about it and it is hit hard. The large amount of
people now scouting vp and sharing information means that good plays
are going to be revealed much quicker and thus disappear more
rapidly than before.

And since casinos are now aware of vp, they are much more likely to
scrutinize more closely the impact of vp advantage players on any
promotion that they are likely to run. So the really good plays are
less likely to occur anyway.

Don Vito

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333"
<rockofjello333@y...> wrote:

I have had experiences on various VP boards and newsgroups,
including VPFree, Skip Hughes' group, the LVA message boards, etc.
that have puzzled and angered me; a friend of mine, who no longer
posts on this or any other board due to experiences similar to

mine

(but orders of magnitude worse), concurs in this idea. To wit:

We have been deeply suspicious for several years about the honesty
and randomness of casino VP machines. We have posted both specific
observations and data on anomalous results that were drawn from

not

only our own experiences, but several other high-level VP players'
as well. The basic conclusion that we have both drawn, and often
articulated, is that there's far too much smoke for there not to

be

some fire.

Whenever we do post something on this or some other board that
suggests that something may not be on the up-and-up, we not only

are

routinely excoriated and insulted publicly by board members, but

we

also receive a flood of insulting and on occasion threatening e-

mail

from various and sundry characters, most of whose nom de plumes we
don't recognize. This has puzzled us (as well as disgusted us),
because our basic thought is: who out there is so in love with the
casinos that they want to take up the sword for them and battle

us,

the blasphemers? We don't publish vague suspicions; we enumerate
FACTS and RESULTS that should give any serious player pause. The
emotionalism and vehemence of the reactions have frankly surprised
us.

The conclusion hit me in a blinding flash just today, after all

this

time: THERE ARE CASINO EMPLOYEES (or "consultants") LURKING on

this

and other VP information pipelines, and their jobs are not only to
passively listen and gather data, but to detect who the strong and
successful players are, with the hope of cross-matching their info
and possibly barring them, and IF INFORMATION WHICH MIGHT BE

HARMFUL

TO THEIR MASTERS' INTERESTS is posted, it's their job to weaken

its

dissemination by flooding the boards and our e-mail inboxes with
ridicule and invective. This is the cyber equivalent of being
shouted down at the town meeting!

I suppose nothing much can be done about these worms; after all,
they could be working out of their homes ("consultants") rather

than

in a casino itself, so tracing IP addresses would be futile even

if

someone wanted to go to the trouble.

I'd like to know if anybody is interested in forming a secure
version of this board, one that screens its members CAREFULLY to
weed out any casino affiliation. Don't ask me how we'd do this. If
we could manage it, we could also post good plays for the benefit

of

other board members without having them instantly destroyed as a
direct result, which is what happens now.

In this era of disappearing plays and increased casino
countermeasures, we have to adopt a defensive stance, while

working

···

together to make sure we maximize what opportunities remain.
Thoughts?

#11

Most of us players that have been playing for years are all ahead of
the game. I have never worked and managed to make a living playing since
1994. However, this particular year seems to be the worst I have ever
seen. I would like to know if other players are doing well this year. If
the majority are, I would feel better. I have been hearing a lot of bad
luck stories. I play 5 nights a week roughly and have hit 2 royals all
year! Not only that, I can never ever book a win anymore. Just very
strange to me, is all. Are the majority of you doing okay this year.
Thanks, Jodie. Boyfriend managed to win the Montelago video poker
tournament but as far as the machines, forget it. Just another 10k to
lose. Thanks Again. Jodie

We (Lucky Lucy and I) are running just about even for the year which
in my mind is a winning proposition. We were a little ahead last week
after a good day (royal on a progressive and a SF on Pick'Em) but that
soon melted away. We hit the machines two or three times a week for
several hours each visit. Getting more comps than we can use and
haveing fun.

Rick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jodi's Mail" <jsmall12@c...> wrote:

#12

I would like to know if other players are doing well this year. If
the majority are, I would feel better. I have been hearing a lot of
bad luck stories. I play 5 nights a week roughly and have hit 2
royals all year! Not only that, I can never ever book a win anymore.
Just very strange to me, is all. Are the majority of you doing okay
this year. Jodie.

We (Lucky Lucy and I) are running just about even for the year which
in my mind is a winning proposition. > Rick

I am having the greatest year ever...have hit more royals
than "statistically" entitled to...and mostly on progressives.

Don the Dentist

#13

I go to Atlantic City about once a month. My result's are about what the odd's say they should be. I'm down a little, but also because I like the AC Joker's Wild machine's, that I know are a ripoff but their fun to play.
   But we alway's get food and room's comped, and show ticket's if we want to go. I say I'm losing some, but I'm getting my money's worth in fun and comp's.

Ned C.
The Wild Joker

···

dds2124 <dds6@cox.net> wrote:

I would like to know if other players are doing well this year. If
the majority are, I would feel better. I have been hearing a lot of
bad luck stories. I play 5 nights a week roughly and have hit 2
royals all year! Not only that, I can never ever book a win anymore.
Just very strange to me, is all. Are the majority of you doing okay
this year. Jodie.

We (Lucky Lucy and I) are running just about even for the year which
in my mind is a winning proposition. > Rick

I am having the greatest year ever...have hit more royals
than "statistically" entitled to...and mostly on progressives.

Don the Dentist

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#14

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "worldbefree22001"
<krajewski.sa@p...> wrote:

No matter what anyone tells you the answer is: grassy knoll.
Seriously, you get flamed because your premise is silly.

"Flaming" is unacceptable behavior even if the self-righteous flamer
is FILLED with missionary zeal to get his exalted holy message
across to the ignorant miscreant. It's doubly unacceptable when the
flamer, like you, also lacks the experience to have any idea what
he's talking about, even though you're definitely full of SOMETHING.
You can disagree with someone in a civil fashion, without insults,
innuendo, or sarcasm. Try it sometime! It doesn't even diminish
people's perception of you as a clever, studly wit.

  If you

really feel you're being cheated stop playing. Continuing to
collect "data" on what you perceive to be fixed games is akin to
letting me continually punch you in the head as you decide if I'm
your friend or not.

It would be a bad idea to abandon a highly lucrative activity on the
basis of a SUSPICION. It would also be a bad idea to IGNORE that
suspicion and continue the activity even though it has ceased to
become lucrative. The situation is much more complex, and more is at
stake, than your trite sarcasm would suggest.

  There are many people currently exploring the

mysteries of area 51 ( the military base not the bad lounge act )

go join them. I'm certain they already have a secure message group
in place that excludes all aliens.

Oh. please. "People being cheated in casinos" is something that has
happened hundreds of thousands of times; "alien visitation" hasn't
ever been documented to have happened. To compare our suspicions to
something that amounts to a cult belief is a seventh-grade debate
tactic, and I'm not letting you get away with it. We have done
CAREFUL analysis and compared voluminous notes to try to solve this
problem; collectively, millions of dollars are at stake, which is
sufficient to warrant US to spend the time to investigate
conditions, even WITHOUT your lordly permission.

Boy, I wish I had your touching faith in those lilywhite bastions of
goodness otherwise known as casinos.

#15

"Flaming" is unacceptable behavior .....

Ok, my humor was out of place and I'm sorry. To communicate the
same message in a less offensive way, your suspicians do feel
slightly conspiratorial in tone. Like other posters before me, can
I suggest that if you have data, present it. There are plenty of
news organizations that would happily publish a sensational story
like that. If what you have are simply suspicians, well that's a
harder sell. As to collecting and presenting "data", I have a
little experience in that area, and I think you'll find that the
anecdotal experience of a biased group of people on an internet chat
board won't hold much water.

#16

I'm with what Harry said a couple day's ago. If you think the machine's aren't honest, dont play them. Play at home on you're computer for free and you wont lose money.
   In my experinece, mostly in Atlantic City and Las Vegas, I think they're honest. I dont trust some other jurisdition's, so I dont play their.
   
   Ned C.
   The Wild Joker

"Flaming" is unacceptable behavior .....

Ok, my humor was out of place and I'm sorry. To communicate the
same message in a less offensive way, your suspicians do feel
slightly conspiratorial in tone. Like other posters before me, can
I suggest that if you have data, present it. There are plenty of
news organizations that would happily publish a sensational story
like that. If what you have are simply suspicians, well that's a
harder sell. As to collecting and presenting "data", I have a
little experience in that area, and I think you'll find that the
anecdotal experience of a biased group of people on an internet chat
board won't hold much water.

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#17

The conclusion hit me in a blinding flash just today, after all this
time: THERE ARE CASINO EMPLOYEES (or "consultants") LURKING on this
and other VP information pipelines, and their jobs are not only to
passively listen and gather data, but to detect who the strong and
successful players are, with the hope of cross-matching their info
and possibly barring them,

Why would they need to do this if your premise that vp machines are biased is correct?

and IF INFORMATION WHICH MIGHT BE HARMFUL
TO THEIR MASTERS' INTERESTS is posted, it's their job to weaken its
dissemination by flooding the boards and our e-mail inboxes with
ridicule and invective. This is the cyber equivalent of being
shouted down at the town meeting!

So it is your opinion that there is a conspiracy to spin vp forums? It is my experience that the type of interactions you describe are endemic to public E forums. No conspiracies necessary.

Chandler

···

At 05:59 PM 9/8/2004, you wrote:

#18

>The conclusion hit me in a blinding flash just today, after all

this

>time: THERE ARE CASINO EMPLOYEES (or "consultants") LURKING on

this

>and other VP information pipelines, and their jobs are not only to
>passively listen and gather data, but to detect who the strong and
>successful players are, with the hope of cross-matching their info
>and possibly barring them,

Why would they need to do this if your premise that vp machines

are biased

is correct?

Never said that ALL the machines were biased; just that it's a
widespread phenomenon. I believe that casino countermesures have
been in place long before we ever suspected they were. At first,
very much akin to the way casinos treated the game of blackjack,
they tried to identify the most skillful players and bar them. This
is the least obtrusive and least harmful to the game. It was only
later that they altered the fundamentals of the game itself.

To answer your question, though, if the altered chips carried a MILD
bias so that the true optimum payback of the machine was more like
98%, this may not satisfy the slot manager who is used to seeing
slot machines on his floor that return more like 90%. So he lowers
the paytable on the already biased machines, and now he has a hold
of 4-5%. People continue to play the "99%" games. The money rolls in.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Chandler <omnibibulous1@c...> wrote:

At 05:59 PM 9/8/2004, you wrote: