vpFREE2 Forums

Ace on the Deal

#1

Red Rock has a progressive version of this game. There are 4 posts,
back in April, where its mentioned briefly, and I didn't find anything
in the database. Is there more somewhere?

A pretty unusual game. There are 6 machines outside the entrance to
the Poker Room. It is a 25cent game that permits a 6 coin max bet. At
six coins at least one Ace is included in the deal (the 3rd dealt
card). It is a 3 way progressive with RF at $1199+, 4 Aces w/Kicker at
$800+, and 4 Aces at $500+. So there are three hands with 2000+
payoffs. Except for the progressive hands, the 5 coin and 6 coin
payouts are identical. It's a DDBP game at 7/5/4/3/1/1.

I guess the issue is the value of the guaranteed Ace on the deal, which
undoubtedly would result in more quad Aces hands. There is probably a
way to compute this. On the other hand, the dealt Ace will no doubt
mess up some deals.

Might this be a game specifically introduced because it can't be
analyzed using VP software?

#2

The Wizard of Odds has written an article on this game (without the progressive).
I suggest you check out his web site.
http://wizardofodds.com/videopoker/tables/aceonthedeal.html

At 7/5 payoff the game sux BIG time.

Regards
A.P.

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 11:35 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Ace on the Deal

Red Rock has a progressive version of this game. There are 4 posts,
back in April, where its mentioned briefly, and I didn't find anything
in the database. Is there more somewhere?

#3

The Suncoast also has Ace On The Deal, but it is multi-
denominational; and I believe the DDB paytable is 9/5 at the 5c
level. It isn't a progressive, but if you hit 4 Aces with a kicker
playing six coins, you get 3200 credits. The Royal is 4799 credits
playing six coins.

If your post below is correct, Red Rock should be embarrassed to
offer the game with a 7/5 DDB paytable at the 25c level.

Red Rock has a progressive version of this game. There are 4

posts,

back in April, where its mentioned briefly, and I didn't find

anything

in the database. Is there more somewhere?

A pretty unusual game. There are 6 machines outside the entrance

to

the Poker Room. It is a 25cent game that permits a 6 coin max

bet. At

six coins at least one Ace is included in the deal (the 3rd dealt
card). It is a 3 way progressive with RF at $1199+, 4 Aces

w/Kicker at

$800+, and 4 Aces at $500+. So there are three hands with 2000+
payoffs. Except for the progressive hands, the 5 coin and 6 coin
payouts are identical. It's a DDBP game at 7/5/4/3/1/1.

I guess the issue is the value of the guaranteed Ace on the deal,

which

undoubtedly would result in more quad Aces hands. There is

probably a

way to compute this. On the other hand, the dealt Ace will no

doubt

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@...> wrote:

mess up some deals.

Might this be a game specifically introduced because it can't be
analyzed using VP software?

#4

At this year's just-concluded gaming show, Bally showed a "Deuce
on the Deal" game. It's the same idea as Ace on the Deal, except it is
variations of Deuces Wild and you start with a deuce in the middle for
your sixth coin.

  My personal take on these game variations is that games that
require a unique strategy for one game don't tend to last. Games that
use normal strategy (Triple Play and family, Spin Poker, Super Times
Pay) tend to be successful.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to
//www.videopokerforwinners.com/Default.asp

#5

Thanks for the Wizard of Odds reference. However, when I checked the
information provided wasn't very helpful. Evidently, as he
stated, "This Section is Down for Rule Changes". What he did provide
was a discussion of two ways this game can be dealt. Not sure the
significance of this, but maybe it is. What I was hoping to find is
some way to evaluate the return of this game, given that three hands
offer progressive jackpots that exceed the norm for DDBP, even at
their reset value.

As I mentioned, if every hand includes an Ace, that means there are
12 other cards that may be shortchanged ... that is, the odds of 3 or
4 of another card on the deal are significantly reduced which,
especially for DDBP, is bad.

In any event, it's pretty clear, based on the other posts,
that 7/5 for DDBD is really not competitive, even for this
progressive game.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Pearson" <a-p@...> wrote:

The Wizard of Odds has written an article on this game (without the
progressive).
I suggest you check out his web site.
http://wizardofodds.com/videopoker/tables/aceonthedeal.html

At 7/5 payoff the game sux BIG time.

Regards
A.P.

#6

Brumar wrote: In any event, it's pretty clear, based on the other posts,

that 7/5 for DDBD is really not competitive, even for this
progressive game.

That's an understatement. Except for the Optimum Play machines, Station
tends to be about 1% or 2% tighter than comparable games at Coast. When
it's a game where nobody really knows the return, you won't go far wrong
by assuming that it's 97% at any Station Casino.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to
//www.videopokerforwinners.com/Default.asp

#7

Does anyone know EXACTLY how this game operates. Their seems to be
two "random" approaches. First, the game could randomly select an ace
from a set of 4 aces, followed by randomly selecting the next 4 cards
from the whole deck. Secondly, 4 cards could be selected and if an ace
were present then fifth random card would be selected from the whole
deck, if not, then an ace would be selected from the set of 4 aces.

At first glance the second approach would appear to provide fewer dealt
aces. It's been a long day so maybe I'm just not thinking straight.

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@...> wrote:

As I mentioned, if every hand includes an Ace, that means there are
12 other cards that may be shortchanged ... that is, the odds of 3 or
4 of another card on the deal are significantly reduced which,
especially for DDBP, is bad.

In any event, it's pretty clear, based on the other posts,
that 7/5 for DDBD is really not competitive, even for this
progressive game.

#8

Does anyone know EXACTLY how this game operates. Their seems to be
two "random" approaches. First, the game could randomly select an

ace

from a set of 4 aces, followed by randomly selecting the next 4

cards

from the whole deck. Secondly, 4 cards could be selected and if an

ace

were present then fifth random card would be selected from the

whole

deck, if not, then an ace would be selected from the set of 4 aces.

At first glance the second approach would appear to provide fewer

dealt

aces. It's been a long day so maybe I'm just not thinking straight.

Dick

Albert Pearson's post on this game referred to the Wizard of Odds
site,
which discussed this very point. According to the WOO (?) the game
deals hands until it comes to one with at least one Ace, which it
places in the 3rd position (center). And he gives the odds for dealt
1,2,3,4 Aces based on this approach.

It's interesting to note that a normal game has 2,598,960 possible
combinations of 5 dealt cards. But for Ace on the Deal this goes
down by a factor of 13 I believe, to 199,920 possible combinations
because every dealt hand MUST include at least one Ace. Does this
make the strategy less complex? I'd assume so, but perhaps not.

Another interesting detail. With DDBP the quad 2,3,4 hands are high
paying. If you happen to be dealt a quad 2,3,4 you automatically get
the kicker (Ace). But if you get only a pair or three 2,3,4's you'd
discard the Ace to improve the quad odds, unless you also are dealt a
pair of Aces. So the Ace is both a help and hindrence!

I'm tempted to suggest the quad Aces cycle drops by a factor of 13,
but this might not be true because redeals sometimes result in quad
Aces. The need for redeals drops to zero because of the guaranteed
Ace on the deal.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mroejacks" <rgmustain@...> wrote:

#9

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@...> wrote:

It's interesting to note that a normal game has 2,598,960 possible
combinations of 5 dealt cards. But for Ace on the Deal this goes
down by a factor of 13 I believe, to 199,920 possible combinations
because every dealt hand MUST include at least one Ace. Does this
make the strategy less complex? I'd assume so, but perhaps not.

I believe there are 886,656 hands with at least one ace, 52C5 - 48C5.

Another interesting detail. With DDBP the quad 2,3,4 hands are

high

paying. If you happen to be dealt a quad 2,3,4 you automatically

get

the kicker (Ace). But if you get only a pair or three 2,3,4's

you'd

discard the Ace to improve the quad odds, unless you also are dealt

a

pair of Aces. So the Ace is both a help and hindrence!

I'm tempted to suggest the quad Aces cycle drops by a factor of 13,
but this might not be true because redeals sometimes result in quad
Aces. The need for redeals drops to zero because of the guaranteed
Ace on the deal.

I'd guess it would be closer to a factor of 3.

#10

I believe there are 886,656 hands with at least one ace, 52C5 -

48C5.

I'd guess it would be closer to a factor of 3.

Both of your calculations were better than mine!

I computed the return for this game with RF=4800, Aces w/K=3200, and
Quad Aces = 2000. It is 101.8225% assuming a 5 quarter max bet. But
it takes 6 quarters to win the progressive so the return will be
significantly lower, but not 20% lower because all of the progressive
hands will occur more frequently (about 3 times) than normal, due to
the guaranteed Ace.

It would be nice if VP software was flexible enough to allow the user
to specify that every deal include at least one Ace.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mroejacks" <rgmustain@...> wrote: