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A simple way to look at the Monty Hall chestnut

Since I am a bridge player, I recognize the corollary to "restricted
choice" in this classic question, and somehow it makes it easier to
understand the Monty Hall question. The two situations are not exactly
the same, however.

In the Monty scenario, we assume that Monty will ALWAYS offer the
switch, whether or not you chose the "right" door. Let's, for the sake
of argument, also assume that he intends to open a door that does NOT
conceal the "Big Prize" before getting your answer.

Assume you picked door #1. Now, if this is WRONG, Monty has no choice
regarding which other door to show you prior to asking you to switch;
it will have to be the remaining "wrong" one. Conversely, if it is
RIGHT, then Monty will be able to choose at random which of the
remaining two doors to show you. So let's say that you initially pick
#1 and Monty shows you #3 (50 lbs. of Purina Goat Chow); either
You picked "correctly" (1/3 chance). and Monty CHOSE #3 to show you
OR, You picked "incorrectly", and Monty had NO CHOICE but to show you
#3 (because #2 was in fact the winner)

It's therefore twice as likely that Monty revealed #3 because he HAD
to (and you picked wrong initially), than that he had a choice, and
CHOSE to pick #3 (and you picked right initially).

In the bridge scenario, we assume the declarer has nine cards in a
suit between him and the dummy; he is missing four cards in the suit,
which include the Q and the J. Now, he wishes to simply play the A
followed by the K on the assumption that the opposing cards are
divided 2-2; now, accordingly, he plays the A; and one opponent plays
the Q or the J. The basic assumption is that if each opponent had
started with two cards, the queen and another or the jack and another,
he would play the small card under the ace. Therefore, if someone
plays an honor card under the ace, he 1)Had that card singleton or 2)
Had both honor cards and CHOSE to play the one he did. Now, if you
presume (and this is where it gets sticky) that EVERYONE considers the
Q and J to be of EQUAL value (as a person holding both of them
SHOULD), then the Monty Hall dynamic applies. The declarer should
assume that it's twice as likely that the person who played the honor
card did so because he HAD to (singleton) than that he had both honors
and CHOSE to (QJ doubleton). However, if someone is ingrained to hold
on to their top cards in a suit until the very last, then that person
would never play the Q unless he HAD to (and would play the J if hw
had QJ). Therefore the play of the Q from this person would definitely
mark the J in the other hand; the play of the J would strongly dictate
playing the other hand for the Q as well (the only time the J-hand
would have the Q also would be if that hand had started with QJ
specifically). HOWEVER, a more experienced player would realize that
this would result in declarer's always playing the suit properly in
these cases; the next thing a beginner tries is to drop the QUEEN from
QJ (which would seem to preclude his holding the J as well), in an
effort to be deceptive. The ideal strategy is to randomize one's
choice in this case (which card to play from QJ).

OK, so how does this relate to Monty Hall?

You will recall that only one of the doors concealed a REAL "stinker"
(a "zonk", I believe it was called); the other non-big-prize door
still contained something decent, like a bedroom set or a
washer-dryer, stuff like that. So the burning question IS: when Monty
had a choice (i.e., the contestant indeed picked the right door), was
he biased toward showing you the "zonk", or biased toward showing you
the "nice prize", or choosing randomly, or (worse) choosing which to
show you according to how he "read" you? Consider: if Monty shows you
the "zonk", the potential gain or loss is the difference between the
"nice prize" and the "grand prize". However, if Monty shows you the
"nice prize", the gamble is bigger since the gain or loss from
switching is now the difference between the grand prize and NOTHING.
So a priori, it's a bigger gamble to switch when Monty shows you the
"nice prize" than when he shows you the "zonk" (ignoring the
restricted choice discussions above), because even if you switch and
you're wrong, you'll still get something decent.

Hmmm. This makes me want to stay up late watching Game Show Network
just to gather data on what Monty DID do in this regard.

The upshot of all this, and one that never gets mentioned by all the
mathematicians (which in not surprising since they don't inhabit the
real world), is that the principle of "restricted choice" is ONLY
valid when the person making the choice regards EACH choice as
equivalent, with NO bias.

rockofjello333 wrote:

snipped stuff about Monty Hall dilemma and further consideration that there are usually only one goat, one big prize, and another prize that has at least some value over a goat.

The upshot of all this, and one that never gets mentioned by all the
mathematicians (which in not surprising since they don't inhabit the
real world), is that the principle of "restricted choice" is ONLY
valid when the person making the choice regards EACH choice as
equivalent, with NO bias.

That's an interesting thought, but I don't think it would alter the fact that 'switching' is still the proper decision, although I'm going on intuition now, without actually analyzing anything. :slight_smile:

Cheers.

Bill Velek

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333" <rockofjello333@y...>
wrote:

lots of cogent analysis which could stand to be repeated but which
I've snipped to avoid getting barked at for not snipping the
messages I reply to :slight_smile:

Why is that mathematical treatises with the word "simple" in the
title generally run on for pages and pages?

A good analysis, rock, leading to a very interesting ending question.
Surely one of the statistical studies that were done on this problem
has an appendix with a compilation of many give-aways and the basic
facts on each - what the contestant chose, what Monty showed, did he
switch, etc. If anybody can lay hands on it that would be useful here.

I think that the problem with the Monty Hall situation is that the explanations used are not easily understood.
The solution in my not so humble opinion is based more in logic than in math.
Here is my set of logic....

There are 3 doors.
You pick 1 door .
Monty has the pick of 2 doors.
Monty has twice the chance of getting the winning door than you do.
If you take the switch then you get twice the chance.

Regards
A.P.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Monty doesn't pick at random
if he did, his odds would be the same as your initial odds: 1/3

I think that the problem with the Monty Hall situation is that the

explanations used are not easily understood.

The solution in my not so humble opinion is based more in logic

than in math.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Pearson" <a-p@s...> wrote:

Here is my set of logic....

There are 3 doors.
You pick 1 door .
Monty has the pick of 2 doors.
Monty has twice the chance of getting the winning door than you do.
If you take the switch then you get twice the chance.

Regards
A.P.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Albert,

It seems to me that there is an important difference with the classic
bridge example in that in the Monty Hall case your initial decision is a
phantom. The only effect of your initial pick is to give information to
Monty so he can set up your real decision. You will never actually pick
from among 3 doors, you only choose between your initial pick and the one
Monty leaves closed.

While I don't remember enough about probability and statistics to say this
absolutely, it has always seemed to me that an important component of the
Restricted Choice question in bridge involves the probability of how four
cards are distributed to two players. There is nothing like this in the
Monty example. Since your only meaningful decision happens after Monty
opens one door your only ever have a 50 / 50 decision. In bridge you obtain
meaningful information by the rank of the card played. In Monty you gain NO
information from Monty's action, therefore it is only window-dressing to
your 50/50 decision.

···

At least, imho. At 12:42 PM 07/25/2004, you wrote:

I think that the problem with the Monty Hall situation is that the
explanations used are not easily understood.
The solution in my not so humble opinion is based more in logic than in math.
Here is my set of logic....

There are 3 doors.
You pick 1 door .
Monty has the pick of 2 doors.
Monty has twice the chance of getting the winning door than you do.
If you take the switch then you get twice the chance.

Regards
A.P.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm afraid that won't help. I saw an interview with Monty Hall where they
asked him about this question. His response was that they didn't play the
game the way it is describes in the puzzle question.

The 1/3 vs. 2/3 solution requires Monty to alway show and empty/zonk door
and alway offer a switch.

If Monty is evil and only offers the switch when your initial pick was
correct, then always switching reduces your overall probability of winning
to zero. Conversely, if Monty only offers the switch when it would
help you, you get a 100% win rate by switching. So, the answer depends
a lot on Monty's behavior.

···

On Saturday 24 July 2004 05:45 pm, rockofjello333 wrote:

Hmmm. This makes me want to stay up late watching Game Show Network
just to gather data on what Monty DID do in this regard.

"Albert Pearson" <a-p@s...> wrote:

There are 3 doors.
You pick 1 door .
Monty has the pick of 2 doors.
Monty has twice the chance of getting the winning door than you do.
If you take the switch then you get twice the chance.

Stated slightly differently: you have a 1/3 chance of picking the
Big Prize on your initial choice, so you're twice as likely to have
picked wrong than right. If you've picked wrong, then switching is
good. If you've picked right, then switching is bad.

Stuart (RandomStu)
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/mypage.htm

Steve Jacobs <jacobs@x> wrote:

The 1/3 vs. 2/3 solution requires Monty to alway show and
empty/zonk door and alway offer a switch.

As a child of the 70s & a TV addict... I can report that Monty did
indeed always show a losing door after the player's pick, regardless
of whether the player had picked the Big Prize door correctly.

OK, OK, I didn't watch EVERY single episode of LMAD, so I can't say
for certain that Monty never did it differently, but that's how I
remember always seeing it happen.

Stuart (RandomStu)
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/mypage.htm

In Monty you gain NO
information from Monty's action, therefore it is only window-

dressing to

your 50/50 decision.

the information you gain is that monty reveals the location of one of
the dogs (or goats)
and as a result your second decision is not 50/50
it's 33/66
33% keep you original choice, 66% switch

why is this important to video poker?
for starters, harrahs (aka the evil empire) occassionally does price
is right promotions

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:

Yeah, its at the Showboat in Atlantic City right now. But I wont pay $25 to sit in the audience when I hate watching it at home for free.
   But they are two different game's. The Price Is Right requires more skill. My wife is better at it because she goes shopping all the time. <g>

Ned C.
The Wild Joker

PS, Yes, I do get Game Show Network, but I dont sit up allnight watching Lets Make a Deal.

···

nightoftheiguana2000 <nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

why is this important to video poker?
for starters, harrahs (aka the evil empire) occassionally does price
is right promotions

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nightoftheiguana2000 wrote:

> In Monty you gain NO
> information from Monty's action, therefore it is only window-
dressing to
> your 50/50 decision.

the information you gain is that monty reveals the location of one of
the dogs (or goats)
and as a result your second decision is not 50/50
it's 33/66
33% keep you original choice, 66% switch

why is this important to video poker?
for starters, harrahs (aka the evil empire) occassionally does price
is right promotions

Okay, I'm going to sell strategy cards for both games:

For "Let's Make a Deal", my strategy card will simple say: "Switch Doors -- always!" :wink:

And for "The Price is Right", it will say: "It you are the last player, NEVER guess more than one dollar over the highest guess, and NEVER guess more than one dollar less than the lowest guess." I've seen both instances cost people the prize.

As a bonus, I'll throw in for free: 'Wheel of Fortune' -- "Never buy vowels if you already know what they are, and generally you never quit spinning if you're sure you know the answer and there are still uncollected consonants on which you can still earn money." Nothing like watching someone buy a vowel when they have: "The c_t in the h_t." :-/

Cheers.

Bill Velek

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:

The Wild Joker wrote:

   Yeah, it's (Price is Right) at the Showboat in Atlantic City right
now. But I wont pay $25 to sit in the audience when I hate watching it
at home for free.

FWIW, if I recall correctly, the entry fee is waived if you simply
earn 5 points on the machines (i.e. $25 slot coin-in, $50 vp). I
don't think they seriously expect anyone would pony up the $25.

- H.