vpFREE2 Forums

A Phenomanal Short Run Experience

Just returned from five nights at Wynn. I want to thank the High
Limit Room crew and my host Carol Bosshart for the outstanding
service provided me. I highly recommend these folks to like players.

This is a quick summary from the guy who was complaining after zero 4
oaks for 2750 hands during my last trip. While I had no Royal flush
this trip, I think you'll this summary wild. Played $25 single play
machine. Averaged 3.5 hours play per day. First three days mostly
played Double Bonus and last two days mostlt double double bonus. In
addition to the expected number of normal 4 oaks, I hit 4 Aces six
times with a kicker three times. Made a profit of about 11% on Coin
in and 300% on my initial bankroll in five days. If you annualize
the return you have too add too many zeros to count.

As a retired auto exec with advanced degrees in both Engineering and
math, I completely support the math published and supported by the
advantage players for the long run and I have read all of it. As a
four times a year or so Vegas visitor, only the short run exists. I
still think there is some grain of truth in what Rob Singer preaches
despite any negatives against Martingale or Kelly Criterion on a non
positive game.

After seven years as a result of this trip I think I am now about
even or slightly ahead of Vegas at least in the interval until my
next visit I'm glad I started as a 25c player though. The
probability of my lucky streak must be wild.

I opened a bank account at BofA in Vegas and that's where this trips
winnings reside. Brought the original bankroll in the form of a
check back to pay Uncle Sam. At least next time I won't have to
bring two money belts and blazer breast pockets full of cash for a
bankroll.

If anyone doubts the veracity of what I say, ask anyone in Wynn's
high limit area about the guy the birthday who played there this week.

Denny

I hear Rob Singer mentioned on this site from time to time. Could or would someone be willing to briefly tell me a little history on Mr. Singer ? I gather he is a successful VP player who doesn't necessarily play positive games and goes against the teachings of others like Bob, Jean, Dan, Linda, etc..?
   
  Thanks,
   
  Nita

···

denflo60 <dennis.florence@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
          Just returned from five nights at Wynn. I want to thank the High
Limit Room crew and my host Carol Bosshart for the outstanding
service provided me. I highly recommend these folks to like players.

This is a quick summary from the guy who was complaining after zero 4
oaks for 2750 hands during my last trip. While I had no Royal flush
this trip, I think you'll this summary wild. Played $25 single play
machine. Averaged 3.5 hours play per day. First three days mostly
played Double Bonus and last two days mostlt double double bonus. In
addition to the expected number of normal 4 oaks, I hit 4 Aces six
times with a kicker three times. Made a profit of about 11% on Coin
in and 300% on my initial bankroll in five days. If you annualize
the return you have too add too many zeros to count.

As a retired auto exec with advanced degrees in both Engineering and
math, I completely support the math published and supported by the
advantage players for the long run and I have read all of it. As a
four times a year or so Vegas visitor, only the short run exists. I
still think there is some grain of truth in what Rob Singer preaches
despite any negatives against Martingale or Kelly Criterion on a non
positive game.

After seven years as a result of this trip I think I am now about
even or slightly ahead of Vegas at least in the interval until my
next visit I'm glad I started as a 25c player though. The
probability of my lucky streak must be wild.

I opened a bank account at BofA in Vegas and that's where this trips
winnings reside. Brought the original bankroll in the form of a
check back to pay Uncle Sam. At least next time I won't have to
bring two money belts and blazer breast pockets full of cash for a
bankroll.

If anyone doubts the veracity of what I say, ask anyone in Wynn's
high limit area about the guy the birthday who played there this week.

Denny

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with any intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways -- Chardonnay in one hand -- chocolate in the other -- body thoroughly used up , totally worn out and screaming " WOO HOO, WHAT A RIDE"

---------------------------------
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denflo60 wrote:

As a retired auto exec with advanced degrees in both Engineering and
math, I completely support the math published and supported by the
advantage players for the long run and I have read all of it. As a
four times a year or so Vegas visitor, only the short run exists.

I'll comment, without reference to any particular "system" of play ...

You have a grasp on the long run; no need for me to remark extensively
there. I think you have a grip on the "short run"; ER drives
expectations to a degree, but variance is typically the driving
factor. This leaves those who play relatively infrequently that some
strategy other than "advantage play" will lead to a higher expectation
of a profit. It can.

Take a game with a 99% ER and very low variance. If you plug away
over a weekend at a given denomination, short of hitting a jackpot
hand, you likely are looking at a low expectation of ending the
weekend with a net win. If you ramp up variance through varying
denomination, when according some fixed set of rules or randomly, your
odds of breaking into significant profit territory without a jackpot
hit increase remarkably.

At the same time, you increase your risk of a very large loss. One
doesn't come without the other. And, it's a mistaken notion to think
that you can improve your overall odds of being a net winner over time
by "quitting while you're ahead". While you again increase your
probability of a winning trip, you also can expect that (given the
increased variance of your play) there will be trips where you quickly
descend into the abyss of quick and swift losses.

···

------

Of course, since under such a play approach your play is likely to
become abbreviated, win or lose, the fact that you play fewer hands
will mean that your net expected losses are potentially curtailed on a
negative ER game, as are your winnings for a positive ER game -- in
both cases, actual outcome will be driven more by the variance for
which you've given emphasis in your play.

The bottom line for play in which variance is ramped up is that you
don't change your expected return ... you merely increase your
probability of being both a significant winner and a significant loser.

btw, in addition to increasing your variance through varying
denomination (bet size), you can also do so by alternating between
lower variance games and higher variance games. The same change in
expectations apply.

------

There are a subset of players for whom the greater expectation of
profit through increased variance is a desired play approach. Not
everyone desires the "grind it out" experience of advantage play.
However, such players do themselves a disservice if they don't get a
handle on the downside as well as the upside.

I'll note that there are a great many number of players who eschew low
variance games in favor of high variance games. The driving force
again is that over the short run, high variance games typically yield
a higher probability of winnings. Such players approach play
reasonably given their play preferences. And, it's my experience that
active players who take this approach have a decent expectation of
both upside and downside expectations.

------

To touch briefly on "the long term": There should be no question that
over the long run a high ER game yields greater expectation of long
term winnings -- and that both higher ER and lower variance can serve
to make that "long term" surprisingly short.

For moderately actively players who record 200 hours of play a year, a
9/6 Jacks or NSUD player playing with .8%-1% of bounceback/cash
bonuses can likely look to play profitability with a very high
expectation of a profit well within 10 years of play -- within a
comparable amount of time, a 9/6 DDB player can look to play at a
cumulative loss with a strong expectation (although they continue to
have an upside expectation "advantage" session to session).

- Harry

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...>
wrote:

I'll comment, without reference to any particular "system" of

play ...

What you say is correct. I had an amazing upside run that likely I
will never have again unless I hit a Royal flush. I always play the
machine with the best pay table for my game and my $ value of play.
I got lucky and I know it, but it just verified the swings of the
thousands of hands I've played on my computer with 9/7 or 9/6 pay
tables for DB or DDB poker. I quit when I was way ahead which
coincided with the end of my Planned stay at Wynn. All I am trying
to say is when you jack up the variance, you jack up the swings and
if your bankroll can take it, you get lucky and quit while you're
ahead you occasionally can end a trip with a big smile on your face.

As to to other person's comment comparing me to to Aesop, this is no
fairy tail. I have documentation and a new Las Vegas bank account
with the winnings and the deposit tickets coinciding with my play. I
do not fly to Las Vegas to move money from one bank account in my
hometown to another in Vegas and I resent your implication that I
have fabricated a story. Enough said, as the purpose of my post was
to share short run VP real time info and not to get into a p....ing
contest.

Aesop did not tell 'fairy tales', he told 'fables'. While there are
similarities, fables are short stories (usually) that may sound like
simple fairy tales, but that are meant to teach a valuable lesson.

I believe the person who said 'Aesop' would be proud was not
referring to you, and implying that you were telling a fairy tale,
but rather to the person who created the Detective Columbo fable -
and the lesson one is to learn from that.

JMO,

Kil

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "denflo60" <dennis.florence@...>
wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@>
wrote:

> I'll comment, without reference to any particular "system" of
play ...

What you say is correct. I had an amazing upside run that likely I
will never have again unless I hit a Royal flush. I always play

the

machine with the best pay table for my game and my $ value of play.
I got lucky and I know it, but it just verified the swings of the
thousands of hands I've played on my computer with 9/7 or 9/6 pay
tables for DB or DDB poker. I quit when I was way ahead which
coincided with the end of my Planned stay at Wynn. All I am trying
to say is when you jack up the variance, you jack up the swings and
if your bankroll can take it, you get lucky and quit while you're
ahead you occasionally can end a trip with a big smile on your

face.

As to to other person's comment comparing me to to Aesop, this is

no

fairy tail. I have documentation and a new Las Vegas bank account
with the winnings and the deposit tickets coinciding with my

play. I

···

do not fly to Las Vegas to move money from one bank account in my
hometown to another in Vegas and I resent your implication that I
have fabricated a story. Enough said, as the purpose of my post was
to share short run VP real time info and not to get into a p....ing
contest.

10-4

···

On 6/25/06, kilroydq2 <kilroydq@prodigy.net> wrote:

  Aesop did not tell 'fairy tales', he told 'fables'. While there are
similarities, fables are short stories (usually) that may sound like
simple fairy tales, but that are meant to teach a valuable lesson.

I believe the person who said 'Aesop' would be proud was not
referring to you, and implying that you were telling a fairy tale,
but rather to the person who created the Detective Columbo fable -
and the lesson one is to learn from that.

JMO,

Kil

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>, "denflo60" <
dennis.florence@...>

wrote:
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>, "Harry Porter"
<harry.porter@>
> wrote:
>
> > I'll comment, without reference to any particular "system" of
> play ...
>
>
> What you say is correct. I had an amazing upside run that likely I
> will never have again unless I hit a Royal flush. I always play
the
> machine with the best pay table for my game and my $ value of play.
> I got lucky and I know it, but it just verified the swings of the
> thousands of hands I've played on my computer with 9/7 or 9/6 pay
> tables for DB or DDB poker. I quit when I was way ahead which
> coincided with the end of my Planned stay at Wynn. All I am trying
> to say is when you jack up the variance, you jack up the swings and
> if your bankroll can take it, you get lucky and quit while you're
> ahead you occasionally can end a trip with a big smile on your
face.
>
> As to to other person's comment comparing me to to Aesop, this is
no
> fairy tail. I have documentation and a new Las Vegas bank account
> with the winnings and the deposit tickets coinciding with my
play. I
> do not fly to Las Vegas to move money from one bank account in my
> hometown to another in Vegas and I resent your implication that I
> have fabricated a story. Enough said, as the purpose of my post was
> to share short run VP real time info and not to get into a p....ing
> contest.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]