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A Novice Question From A Paranoid Mind

#1

Howdy

I am not addicted to video poker as long as I don't try to stop playing!

Not knowing a thing about how a slot card and a vp machine carry on when in
the mist of intercourse let me raise a question. Do you think it is possible
to manipulate the outcome of a machine by programming a slot card to bent to
its will. That way when a machine is inspected without my card inserted
nothing irregular is detected.

There is a classic Ziggy Cartoon:
y
Ziggy is seen under the head shrinkers couch looking very scared.The quote
reads "If everyone is after you, don't you think someone would have gotten you
by now?"

Grumpy
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#2

I think what you're asking is, is it possible for a VP machine (or any
slot machine) to "behave" differently when a player's card is inserted
vs. when it's not.

The short answer is, well, yes. It's just software, so it can be
programmed to do anything.

However, the real answer, is the same for all similar queries
regarding casinos rigging their machines: It is unlikely for a major
established casino to rig their machines because they are profitable
to begin with. The cost of losing a gaming license combined with
devastating publicity when the scandal is made public is far greater
than the additional revenue they might realize by operating their
machine outside of gaming regulations.

It is far simpler (and legal!) to simply adjust paytables (esp. on
slots where no one knows what they are anyway) to lower return
percentages.

I hope this helps. I think if you played often enough, you would
eventually see that your results with a player's card inserted would
match those with the card out.

#3

It is unlikely for a major
established casino to rig their machines because they are profitable
to begin with.

Have you seen the results lately?

The cost of losing a gaming license

Licenses hardly ever get pulled. One recent case was the AC Tropicana,
but they had to do everything wrong in order for that to happen, and
it almost got appealed at the last moment, and that was in a state
with a lot of anti-gambling interests.

combined with
devastating publicity when the scandal is made public

Trop "The Way Las Vegas Was Meant To Be" is still in business, just
not in AC. How many people know they got their AC license rovoked, how
many people know why they got their AC license revoked? Devastating
publicity? If it's not entertaining, it's not in the news. These days
you have to dig around to figure out what's really going on, to get
behind the marketing blitz, to get behind the propaganda.

It is far simpler (and legal!) to simply adjust paytables (esp. on
slots where no one knows what they are anyway) to lower return
percentages.

Too many people know not to play short paytables and reel slot players
walk from tight machines, otherwise they'd all be set at the minimum
allowed by law, if memory serves me that's 65% in Nevada.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "maxbet5" <maxbet5@...> wrote:

#4

Sorry, but your answer is misleading. The Trop had its NJ license pulled because they cut services so badly the place was filthy and customers were not being served. No cheating was involved. If a casino was found to be intentionally cheating the license would be pulled immediately.

You are correct that they hardly ever get pulled but that is because they are almost always run honestly. Columbia Sussex overpaid for Aztar Corp and thought that they could recoup their investment by slashing costs.

Nevada is keeping close watch on their properties here. While there has been pressure to pull their Nevada license the appeals process in NJ is ongoing. If there is a final disposition against the now separate Tropicana Entertainment in NJ expect the Nevada license to go as well.

Also note that the Cullinary Union is working hard to get the license revoked and has a great deal of influence.

···

At 10:32 AM 1/10/2009, you wrote:

> The cost of losing a gaming license

Licenses hardly ever get pulled. One recent case was the AC Tropicana,
but they had to do everything wrong in order for that to happen, and
it almost got appealed at the last moment, and that was in a state
with a lot of anti-gambling interests.

#5

According to the LVRJ, it was a bit more than just cutting services:

http://www.lvrj.com/business/12456031.html

"In a statement, commissioners, who rejected a recommendation by the
state's Division of Gaming Enforcement to give Columbia Sussex a
one-year temporary license, said the company showed, "a lack of
business ability, a lack of financial responsibility and lack of good
character, honesty and integrity.""

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/honesty

Also, regarding your claim: "If a casino was found to be intentionally
cheating the license would be pulled immediately."

The Venetian was found to have cheated. They never had their license
revoked. Some employees were fingered, they got new jobs out of state.

http://www.casinocitytimes.com/news/article.cfm?contentId=153511

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

Sorry, but your answer is misleading. The Trop had its NJ license
pulled because they cut services so badly the place was filthy and
customers were not being served. No cheating was involved. If a
casino was found to be intentionally cheating the license would be
pulled immediately.

#6

nightoftheiguana2000 wrote:

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:
> Sorry, but your answer is misleading. The Trop had its NJ license
> pulled because they cut services so badly the place was filthy and
> customers were not being served. No cheating was involved. If a
> casino was found to be intentionally cheating the license would be
> pulled immediately.

According to the LVRJ, it was a bit more than just cutting services:

http://www.lvrj.com/business/12456031.html

"In a statement, commissioners, who rejected a recommendation by the
state's Division of Gaming Enforcement to give Columbia Sussex a
one-year temporary license, said the company showed, "a lack of
business ability, a lack of financial responsibility and lack of good
character, honesty and integrity.""

-
-------
They were found to have neglected basic business practices like having an independent audit committee, and that is a fundamental requirement for a gambling business in New Jersey. It should be elsewhere, too, but apparently isn't.,_._,___

#7

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

Also, regarding your claim: "If a casino was found to be intentionally
cheating the license would be pulled immediately."

The Venetian was found to have cheated. They never had their license
revoked. Some employees were fingered, they got new jobs *out of

state*.

http://www.casinocitytimes.com/news/article.cfm?contentId=153511

I believe it was reported by Al Rogers, from Wong's website, that a
couple of these scumbags were actually hired by Station's. If memory
serves me correctly, one was initially employed at Wildfire on Rancho.

#8

You would think they would have at least lost their license to be
employed in the gaming industry in Nevada, but apparently not ... I
hope they are at least restricted from being a "key person" (key
access to inside machines) but it also wouldn't shock me to find out
that they are not ...

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hockeystl" <vegasstl@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
>
> Also, regarding your claim: "If a casino was found to be intentionally
> cheating the license would be pulled immediately."
>
> The Venetian was found to have cheated. They never had their license
> revoked. Some employees were fingered, they got new jobs *out of
state*.
>
> http://www.casinocitytimes.com/news/article.cfm?contentId=153511

I believe it was reported by Al Rogers, from Wong's website, that a
couple of these scumbags were actually hired by Station's. If memory
serves me correctly, one was initially employed at Wildfire on Rancho.

#9

The primary reason that the Tropicana AC lost their license was because they failed to have an Audit Committee that was composed of outsiders and met the Gaming Commission's requirements. Additional issues just added more fuel to the fire.

···

To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
From: mspevack@optonline.net
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:48:41 -0500
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: A Novice Question From A Paranoid Mind

nightoftheiguana2000 wrote:
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill
> Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:
> > Sorry, but your answer is misleading. The Trop had its NJ license
> > pulled because they cut services so badly the place was filthy and
> > customers were not being served. No cheating was involved. If a
> > casino was found to be intentionally cheating the license would be
> > pulled immediately.
>
> According to the LVRJ, it was a bit more than just cutting services:
>
> http://www.lvrj.com/business/12456031.html
> <http://www.lvrj.com/business/12456031.html>
>
> "In a statement, commissioners, who rejected a recommendation by the
> state's Division of Gaming Enforcement to give Columbia Sussex a
> one-year temporary license, said the company showed, "a lack of
> business ability, a lack of financial responsibility and lack of good
> character, honesty and integrity.""
>

-
-------
They were found to have neglected basic business practices like having
an independent audit committee, and that is a fundamental requirement
for a gambling business in New Jersey. It should be elsewhere, too, but
apparently isn't.,_._,___

------------------------------------

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#10

The mea culpa is that I addressed cost cutting as a catch-all rather than go into details. I had forgotten about the audit committee which is to my shame.

On your other point, however, the Venetian case was a drawing rigged to give the prize to a particular customer. While cheating, it is clearly of a different order than gaffing the machines would be. It was not, apparently, authorized by senior management and would not gain Sands Corp anything since they would give out the prize anyway. Yes, that customer might have not continued to patronize them if he didn't win but a customer that fickle wouldn't be a long-term bet anyway.

While disgusting and vile this action should no more cause a license loss than the hospital should have lost theirs when a technician started killing patients.

Bill

···

At 11:58 PM 1/11/2009, you wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:
> Sorry, but your answer is misleading. The Trop had its NJ license
> pulled because they cut services so badly the place was filthy and
> customers were not being served. No cheating was involved. If a
> casino was found to be intentionally cheating the license would be
> pulled immediately.

According to the LVRJ, it was a bit more than just cutting services:

http://www.lvrj.com/business/12456031.html

"In a statement, commissioners, who rejected a recommendation by the
state's Division of Gaming Enforcement to give Columbia Sussex a
one-year temporary license, said the company showed, "a lack of
business ability, a lack of financial responsibility and lack of good
character, honesty and integrity.""

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/honesty

Also, regarding your claim: "If a casino was found to be intentionally
cheating the license would be pulled immediately."

The Venetian was found to have cheated. They never had their license
revoked. Some employees were fingered, they got new jobs out of state.

http://www.casinocitytimes.com/news/article.cfm?contentId=153511

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#11

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
> <nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
> >
> > Also, regarding your claim: "If a casino was found to be

intentionally

> > cheating the license would be pulled immediately."
> >
> > The Venetian was found to have cheated. They never had their license
> > revoked. Some employees were fingered, they got new jobs *out of
> state*.
> >
> > http://www.casinocitytimes.com/news/article.cfm?contentId=153511
>
>
> I believe it was reported by Al Rogers, from Wong's website, that a
> couple of these scumbags were actually hired by Station's. If memory
> serves me correctly, one was initially employed at Wildfire on Rancho.

You would think they would have at least lost their license to be
employed in the gaming industry in Nevada, but apparently not ... I
hope they are at least restricted from being a "key person" (key
access to inside machines) but it also wouldn't shock me to find out
that they are not ...

I should add that at least former Gaming Commissioner Ron Harris is in
the black book:
http://gaming.nv.gov/loep_harris.htm
http://gaming.nv.gov/loep_main.htm

Still, it's hard (for me at least) to have a lot of confidence in
enforcement. Enforcement seems to be lax all around these days. Can
hardly wait to see who gets Presidential pardons this time. Is Madoff
on the list? Why not? He seems like a nice guy. I'm sure he
contributed to both parties, to hedge his bets. Everyone deserves a
second chance. Maybe he can get an appointment to Senator to serve out
his days?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hockeystl" <vegasstl@> wrote:

#12

The mea culpa is that I addressed cost cutting as a catch-all rather
than go into details.

You know what they say these days: "Don't sweat the small stuff, and
it's all small stuff ..."

While disgusting and vile this action should no more cause a license
loss than the hospital should have lost theirs when a technician
started killing patients.

So, basically, when there is a problem, some employees should be
fingered and quietly given jobs elsewhere, but everything else is
business as usual. The corporation is never at fault? It's just a few
bad apples that need to be slapped on the wrist (gently), given a
brief timeout, and quietly relocated elsewhere?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

#13

Please don't misstate what I said.

And please don't generalize from one incident. We need to look at circumstances and make determinations based on facts, not ideology. Of course corporations are often at fault. But there is NO evidence that this was the case this time, in fact there seemed to be evidence that the corporation assisted in getting to the true facts of the incident. Will we ever know for sure? Of course not but at the same time we can't make up facts that we desire.

···

At 11:26 AM 1/12/2009, you wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:
> The mea culpa is that I addressed cost cutting as a catch-all rather
> than go into details.

You know what they say these days: "Don't sweat the small stuff, and
it's all small stuff ..."

> While disgusting and vile this action should no more cause a license
> loss than the hospital should have lost theirs when a technician
> started killing patients.

So, basically, when there is a problem, some employees should be
fingered and quietly given jobs elsewhere, but everything else is
business as usual. The corporation is never at fault? It's just a few
bad apples that need to be slapped on the wrist (gently), given a
brief timeout, and quietly relocated elsewhere?

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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