A Longer Caesars Report... Liberal Accounts of Live P

[jt417552]

In a message dated 6/25/2006 2:31:27 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
omnibibulous1@comcast.net writes:

Live P: Didn’t get to play as much poker as I would have liked. I haven’t
weened Nancy from my company and vp was always something we could do
together. I played some low limit holdem at Caesars and Bellagio. The play
at the Caesars 3/6 was stunningly bad with some players not even
understanding betting structure or hand values.

···

***********************

Thank you for mentioning "Live P" I know for both of us doing so we are

going to be arrested at any moment by the vpFREE Military Police and escorted
to FREEvpFREE. I don't know if you heard but, FREEvpFREE is actually the
Dungeon room in a Gay gym on Maryland Parkway. I know when the VPFMP's come for
me I'm going to put up a fight. That reminds me of the Las Vegas tax evader,
not Erwin Schiff but a supporter of his beliefs. (btw Schiff was convicted in
2/06 and is in prison for I think 33 months
_http://www.quatloos.com/article.php?ID=317_ (http://www.quatloos.com/article.php?ID=317) ) The guy I'm
thinking of was a young guy in his 20's with a wife and kid. Back in about 97' he
went on local talk radio saying the IRS was an illegal institution and there
was nothing in the US Constitution supporting it's right to collect taxes.
His total tax debt was $1800 and he refused to pay any taxes. The Constable
came to his house to serve him with papers. He opened the door saw who it was
and did a really dumb thing as he was in the "Patriot" movement also. He
rushed back inside, got his rifle and swaggered back to the front door to protect
his "private property" by baring arms as outlined in the same Constitution.
Mistake! Now, he's in that prison up near Beatty for many years. His wife and
kid don't have a father and husband and it's all for a stinking $1800

Anyway thank you for commenting of the softness of live games. I've been
playing online for almost a year and have been afraid of live play. Maybe I'll
get into it. Although I heard it's more un soft in the NL games here and my
convo with a local player confirms that. He claims to be a pro player and told
me the tourists come to Vegas to PLAY not to FOLD so he waits till he has a
good hand and takes down their entire stack. Barry Tannenbaum ( a limit player
at Bellagio 20/40 level) has some great articles in Card Player magazine
abut the "Vegas Gold Standard" of play and you can read them online too.
************
Second stack broaches the subject of a chop. It is only my third live
tournament and I hadn’t seriously considered placing in the money, much less
what to do if a chop was offered. As a vp player I’m always after reducing
variance where it doesn’t sacrifice ER.and my short handed and heads up play
is likely to be the weakest part of my game as I have almost zero experience
at it, but I do have a significant lead. Prize structure is
$400/$800/$1200. The second stack offers $50 from his prize pool and third
stack offers the same. A guaranteed $900 and the 2 shorter stacks get $750
each. As added incentive this puts me about even for the trip erasing the
nasty business of my run at 10 play super aces. Well, hell, let’s make a
deal!

<<< I think you did the right thing and maybe could have made a deal sooner,
like with five players left. My experience in poker is probably not as much
as you but... I've spent some time online watching final tables of the $33
and up buy in's on Party. With three players left your lead could have went
south really quick so you got out of it in good shape. Online, I see players not
knowing how to use the negotiation tools as they have never been to a final
table and thousands of dollars are at stake. I like also to watch final table
replays on Stars. It's so awesome. They show all the cards face up. Those
guys play just like us, no serious thought of pot odds percentages. They just
play a hand and hope for the best. And that's with over a hundred thousand
dollars at stake.
*****************
I pushed all in with position and AKo on a big stacks $500 raise. Not sure
whether his call was correct as he wasn’t quite getting 2 to 1 on his money
and could easily
have been a serious dog, but call he did with J9s. Guess it depends on what
he put me on, but he had the stack to gamble with. Yes, I barked when the 9
hit the river, but I didn’t see any other way to play it. Never once in the
last two tournaments did I get my money in when I wasn’t the favorite. I’m
pretty proud of that.

<<< When i get AKo I wish I could have gotten 77 or something less exciting.
AKo. Big Slick as it's called is so puzzling to me. I wish somebody would
write a book just on that hand. I think in your situation I would have folded
even though the blinds may have eaten me up completely in a few more hands.
But you know what they say in poker with regards to a decision.... "It depends"
And, you were at the table not me, you had a feeling for what was going on.
JT

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Chandler1]

>>> Thank you for mentioning "Live P" I know for both of us doing

so we are

going to be arrested at any moment by the vpFREE Military Police

and escorted

to FREEvpFREE. I don't know if you heard but, FREEvpFREE is

actually the

Dungeon room in a Gay gym on Maryland Parkway. I know when the

VPFMP's come for

me I'm going to put up a fight.

That is what FREEvpFREE is for and I fully support the alternate
lifestyle if fighting is what you are into;-)

Anyway thank you for commenting of the softness of live games.

I've been

playing online for almost a year and have been afraid of live

play. Maybe I'll

get into it. Although I heard it's more un soft in the NL games

here and my

convo with a local player confirms that. He claims to be a pro

player and told

me the tourists come to Vegas to PLAY not to FOLD so he waits till

he has a

good hand and takes down their entire stack. Barry Tannenbaum ( a

limit player

at Bellagio 20/40 level) has some great articles in Card Player

magazine

abut the "Vegas Gold Standard" of play and you can read them

online too.

In general, and as a newb, I think I find the live games as soft or
softer than online. I played 1/2 holdem on Party and now UB working
promotions, and some of the UB games can get pretty tight. It pays
to be choosy about your table. I do find more hyper aggressive
maniacs online, and because you are seeing more hands per hour, you
can spot weaknesses quicker.

<<< I think you did the right thing and maybe could have made a

deal sooner,

like with five players left. My experience in poker is probably

not as much

as you but... I've spent some time online watching final tables of

the $33

and up buy in's on Party. With three players left your lead could

have went

south really quick so you got out of it in good shape. Online, I

see players not

knowing how to use the negotiation tools as they have never been

to a final

table and thousands of dollars are at stake. I like also to watch

final table

replays on Stars. It's so awesome. They show all the cards face

up. Those

guys play just like us, no serious thought of pot odds

percentages. They just

play a hand and hope for the best. And that's with over a hundred

thousand

dollars at stake.

Upon reflection, I liked the chop also. I've never watched the big
online tournaments, but will give it a shot.

<<< When i get AKo I wish I could have gotten 77 or something less

exciting.

AKo. Big Slick as it's called is so puzzling to me. I wish

somebody would

write a book just on that hand. I think in your situation I would

have folded

even though the blinds may have eaten me up completely in a few

more hands.

But you know what they say in poker with regards to a

decision.... "It depends"

And, you were at the table not me, you had a feeling for what was

going on.

JT

I think AK is mostly a powerhouse hand against like kind hands (AQ,KQ
etc.) that it dominates... The guy had been bullying the table and
had had built his stack against passive opponents. I didn't think he
wanted action on his raise. I didn't put him on anything better than
a small pair and figured my push would be the best chance at me
getting him off of his hand. I would have been happy if he had
folded... especially in retrospect;-) I had a couple of
unattractive options I guess, but I was going to have to confront the
guy sooner or later and I couldn't count on a better spot. Anyway,
water under the bridge.

I'm considering taking up Live P as my new hip hop name...

Chandler

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, jt417552@... wrote:

[Mickey]

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "cmayhem2001" <omnibibulous1@...>
wrote:

> Anyway thank you for commenting of the softness of live games.
I've been
> playing online for almost a year and have been afraid of live
play. Maybe I'll
> get into it. Although I heard it's more un soft in the NL games
here and my
> convo with a local player confirms that. He claims to be a pro
player and told
> me the tourists come to Vegas to PLAY not to FOLD so he waits

till

he has a
> good hand and takes down their entire stack. Barry Tannenbaum (

a

limit player
> at Bellagio 20/40 level) has some great articles in Card Player
magazine
> abut the "Vegas Gold Standard" of play and you can read them
online too.

The live low limit games around Nevada are softer than where I play
online. One indicator of this is I see about 45% of flops online
whereas in the live games I see 75% of the flops simply because I am
not being raised out of the pot. Roy Cooke, poker player, column
writer for cardplayer magazine, card room manager at planet poker
(online)says the pot sizes online are about a third of what they
were 3 years ago.

So , yes online play has improved. But for the stakes, online is
still the best bet and here's why. Let's say you are playing in a
live 3-6 holdem game somwhere in Las Vegas and win a $36 pot. The
house has probably taken out a $3 rake, plus a $1 bad beat rake, and
then, don't forget the dealer. So here we are talking about $4.50
to $5 coming out of a $36 pot. The Statioon casinos are even
worse. $4 rake, $1 bad beat, don't forget the dealer. Let me give
you a little hint. The worlds best holdem player might be able to
make about $5 an hour in games like that. The above average player
cannot beat the rake in the long run. He'll come close but won't
win any significant money.

Juxtapose this to the Pokerstars rake of 5%. But it is not really
5%. They rake one at twenty, one at forty, one at seventy. In a 2-
4 or 3-6 game if you raise before the flop and get one or two
callers, then bet the flop, they fold and the pot doesn't go to
twenty dollars there is no rake. If you win a $36 pot only one
dollar is taken out because the pot did not go to $40. That's a
rake of about 2.75%. And, oh yes, the cyberdealer refuses to take
tips. If you get involved in a big pot and it goes to, say $60,
only two dollars is coming out, about 3.33%.

In addition Pokerstars gives about 16% rakeback out of the first
dollar raked in the form of Frequent Player Points which can be used
for Tournaments or Merchandise. I currently have enough points to
buy in to the Sunday $215 buy-in, Million dollar guaranteed
tournament three times. Players who run enough points also get
freerols tournaments several times a month. A Frequent Player
Point has a par value of 1.6 cents. But for a very good tournament
player the value can be 200% or 300% of par value.

In the 15-30 I play when in Vegas at Wynn and Bellagio the rake
points are something like this. One at 40, one at eighty, one at
$120 and one at $200. Percentagewise this is a much better deal for
an advantage player. $4 on a $200 pot is about 2%. It's a little
higher for the smaller pots. The rake is like this because the
players are more advanced and will not tolerate the house ripping
them off. Juxtapose this to the illegal games in Anchorage, Alaska
where they rake 5% all the way up in the 10-20. They can get away
with it because the players don't know the difference. Same thing
with low-limt games in Vagas.

Limit holdem is a percentage game. You are looking to turn a profit
of 10% or 15% on your total action. The money making hands do not
win all the time. They get beat. If you run AA against KK and 6/5
suited in three-way action on a showdown calculator like they have
on TV you will see that AA wins only 49% of the time. So AA is a
dog to win the hand but makes money in the long run because it is
getting 2 to 1 on the money.

The rake has a huge effect on an advantage players profit making
potential and I scrutinize it everywhere I go.

May all your flops be golden.

[Mickey]

One indicator of this is I see about 45% of flops online

whereas in the live games I see 75% of the flops simply because I am
not being raised out of the pot.

Yeah, I know. You're all chomping at the bit to play poker with me
after a statement like that. My proofreader quit and ran off with the
circus.

The sentence should read:

One indicator of this is I see about 45% of flops from the big blind
online whereas in the live game I see 75% of the flops from the big
blind simply because I am not being raised out of the pots.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

[vex1]

mickeycrimm wrote:

Yeah, I know. You're all chomping at the bit to play poker with me
after a statement like that. My proofreader quit and ran off with the
circus.

The sentence should read:

One indicator of this is I see about 45% of flops from the big blind
online whereas in the live game I see 75% of the flops from the big
blind simply because I am not being raised out of the pots.

Either way your post read, I'd rather play poker with you than with most
of the locals around here. Most players here see around 75% of the flops
because they *can't* be raised out of a pot pre-flop, no matter what. Of
course the closest local games to me are all 3/6 or 4/8-kill. No
fold'em-hold'em, indeed.

Me? I'm not afraid to fold.

--Brett

···

---------------------------------------------------
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of
arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid
broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and proclaiming,
'Wow-What a Ride!' "

http://vexicon.googlepages.com - updated 6/22/2006