vpFREE2 Forums

A Hypothetical Question

Four days at home with a nasty spring cold have left me with time to ponder gambling imponderables and gambling fantasies. After you read my question below, you might think the cold has left me one taco short of a combination plate.

I have a hypothetical question that has probably been asked in various forms over the years. I think it ultimately is mostly or completely a math question. Maybe it is a risk of ruin question or a derivative thereof.

Assumptions:

1. You have a million dollar bankroll.
2. You can only play negative EV games. For the hypothetical, assume you give the casino a half of one percent edge on every bet you make.
3. You play games that have a maximum bet of $25,000. You, however, are free to play games with lower limits if you wish.
4. You play every day with the objective of winning $1,000. You stop for the day as soon as you have won $1,000.
5. You are willing and able to risk the entire bankroll on any given day to win $1,000.
6. You play perfect strategy, albeit only on negative EV games.

Questions:

1. How many days are you likely able to play before you encounter that fateful (inevitable?) day when you lose your million dollar bankroll?
2. Are there specific strategies such as betting strategies or bankroll management strategies that you could use to improve your longevity (i.e., putting off the day that you lose your bankroll)?

If I am leaving out any key assumption or not asking the right question, kindly supplement as necessary.

Thanks,

Jeff

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff McDaniel" <jmcdaniel@...> wrote: 1. How many days are you likely able to play before you encounter that fateful (inevitable?) day when you lose your million dollar bankroll?

I'll answer this for myself: an infinite number of days, because in the absence of positive machines I would not play.

Yes you are correct it is a math question and one I'm ill-equipped to answer, since I only know positive expectation math. I'm sure one of our other regulars can answer your questions.

~FK

Frank, Ifin the absence of positive machines you would not play, the answer is you are likely able to play zero days, not an infinite number. You may never lose your bankroll in this situation and you may theoretically go a great number of days withoutplaying if that were the question, but I would have to consult an actuarial table to determine the likely number of days that you could go without playing. I suspect it would be a fair bit below infinity.

Happy to help with the higher math.

···

________________________________
From: Frank <frank@progressivevp.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2011 4:16 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: A Hypothetical Question

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff McDaniel" <jmcdaniel@...> wrote: 1. How many days are you likely able to play before you encounter that fateful (inevitable?) day when you lose your million dollar bankroll?

I'll answer this for myself: an infinite number of days, because in the absence of positive machines I would not play.

Yes you are correct it is a math question and one I'm ill-equipped to answer, since I only know positive expectation math. I'm sure one of our other regulars can answer your questions.

~FK

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I should have mentioned: I plan to live forever, and I'm willing to die trying.

Or I could say I really meant to say "in-finite", which of course means "very finite"...you know like when you add "in" to "flammable" and get "inflammable", which means "very flammable".

Optionally, I could admit I was wrong. This seemed funnier.

Anyway, someone should answer the original question seriously. I would, but I really don't know negative expectancy calculations.

~FK

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rick E. Percy" <ricke.percy@...> wrote: Frank, If in the absence of positive machines you would not play, the answer is you are likely able to play zero days, not an infinite number. You may never lose your bankroll in this situation and you may theoretically go a great number of days without playing if that were the question, but I would have to consult an actuarial table to determine the likely number of days that you could go without playing. I suspect it would be a fair bit below infinity.

Happy to help with the higher math.

You didn't clarify what chance you want there to be of winning the $1000. You seemed to only be concerned with minimizing the chance of losing the $1 million, which makes the answer simple. Maybe the assumption that playing in such a way that maximizes the chance of winning the $1000 before losing the $1 million should be incorporated, in which case a Martingale that starts out at $1000 is probably the ideal approach. The chance of winning is probably close to the ratio of the 2 possible results, 999 out of 1000.

···

----- Jeff McDaniel <jmcdaniel@dmtechlaw.com> wrote:

Four days at home with a nasty spring cold have left me with time to ponder gambling imponderables and gambling fantasies. After you read my question below, you might think the cold has left me one taco short of a combination plate.

I have a hypothetical question that has probably been asked in various forms over the years. I think it ultimately is mostly or completely a math question. Maybe it is a risk of ruin question or a derivative thereof.

Assumptions:

1. You have a million dollar bankroll.

2. You can only play negative EV games. For the hypothetical, assume you give the casino a half of one percent edge on every bet you make.

3. You play games that have a maximum bet of $25,000. You, however, are free to play games with lower limits if you wish.

4. You play every day with the objective of winning $1,000. You stop for the day as soon as you have won $1,000.

5. You are willing and able to risk the entire bankroll on any given day to win $1,000.

6. You play perfect strategy, albeit only on negative EV games.

Questions:

1. How many days are you likely able to play before you encounter that fateful (inevitable?) day when you lose your million dollar bankroll?

2. Are there specific strategies such as betting strategies or bankroll management strategies that you could use to improve your longevity (i.e., putting off the day that you lose your bankroll)?

If I am leaving out any key assumption or not asking the right question, kindly supplement as necessary.

Thanks,

Jeff

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We lose most of our money playing POSTIVE expecation machines.(When including all the benefits of cash back and slot promos)
I just hope we live long enough to even out!
Right now we are about 6 cycles behind in Royals at Palms.
Waiting for that dealt Royal to even things out, and get that positive number.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff McDaniel" <jmcdaniel@> wrote: 1. How many days are you likely able to play before you encounter that fateful (inevitable?) day when you lose your million dollar bankroll?

I'll answer this for myself: an infinite number of days, because in the absence of positive machines I would not play.

Yes you are correct it is a math question and one I'm ill-equipped to answer, since I only know positive expectation math. I'm sure one of our other regulars can answer your questions.

~FK

No mathematical genius am I. I just started to read this threat So forgive me if this info is repetitive redundant and just plain inaccurate. I do play house edge video poker and am losing overall the many years I have played. The "long run" is not a finite length of time so realizing the calculated result of your perfect play may be millions of hands away like the computer did in far less time. The bell curve would suggest many folks will experience the W/L results that were anticipating..but some will not unless they play to infinity and I have no positive proof of that .

Ralph Gary

···

-----Original Message-----
From: the7thwarrior <Judy@realtor.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 1:53 pm
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: A Hypothetical Question

We lose most of our money playing POSTIVE expecation machines.(When including all the benefits of cash back and slot promos)
I just hope we live long enough to even out!
Right now we are about 6 cycles behind in Royals at Palms.
Waiting for that dealt Royal to even things out, and get that positive number.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff McDaniel" <jmcdaniel@> wrote: 1. How many days are you likely able to play before you encounter that fateful (inevitable?) day when you lose your million dollar bankroll?

I'll answer this for myself: an infinite number of days, because in the absence of positive machines I would not play.

Yes you are correct it is a math question and one I'm ill-equipped to answer, since I only know positive expectation math. I'm sure one of our other regulars can answer your questions.

~FK

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sounds approximately right. On average with a Martingale, you win $1,000 on 995 days for $995,000, then on the 996th day (black Friday) you lose your original million plus the rake, but you still have $995,000 in previous winnings and the casino gives you a car or house or boat or something plus 10% loss rebate plus of course the super secret top whale "I lost a million in one day" card and free cruises and shrimp cocktails for life. Plus the cocktail waitress or pool boy (your choice) suddenly has a high school crush on you. You got the original million from a cash out house refi which is now under water so you mail in the keys. You write a book called "The Secret World of Martingale Hustlers and How they Beat the Casinos for Millions!!!". Woo Hoo!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, 007 <007@...> wrote:

You didn't clarify what chance you want there to be of winning the $1000. You seemed to only be concerned with minimizing the chance of losing the $1 million, which makes the answer simple. Maybe the assumption that playing in such a way that maximizes the chance of winning the $1000 before losing the $1 million should be incorporated, in which case a Martingale that starts out at $1000 is probably the ideal approach. The chance of winning is probably close to the ratio of the 2 possible results, 999 out of 1000.

----- Jeff McDaniel <jmcdaniel@...> wrote:
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>Four days at home with a nasty spring cold have left me with time to ponder gambling imponderables and gambling fantasies. After you read my question below, you might think the cold has left me one taco short of a combination plate.

>

> I have a hypothetical question that has probably been asked in various forms over the years. I think it ultimately is mostly or completely a math question. Maybe it is a risk of ruin question or a derivative thereof.

>

> Assumptions:

>

> 1. You have a million dollar bankroll.

> 2. You can only play negative EV games. For the hypothetical, assume you give the casino a half of one percent edge on every bet you make.

> 3. You play games that have a maximum bet of $25,000. You, however, are free to play games with lower limits if you wish.

> 4. You play every day with the objective of winning $1,000. You stop for the day as soon as you have won $1,000.

> 5. You are willing and able to risk the entire bankroll on any given day to win $1,000.

> 6. You play perfect strategy, albeit only on negative EV games.

>

> Questions:

>

> 1. How many days are you likely able to play before you encounter that fateful (inevitable?) day when you lose your million dollar bankroll?

> 2. Are there specific strategies such as betting strategies or bankroll management strategies that you could use to improve your longevity (i.e., putting off the day that you lose your bankroll)?

>

> If I am leaving out any key assumption or not asking the right question, kindly supplement as necessary.

>

> Thanks,

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> Jeff

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Your answer is considerably funnier than mine, but I think the answer is highly dependent on the game, and a bit more complicated to calculate.

The 1/2% edge is on the expected amount that is to be wagered, not on the amount of the starting bankroll, so the probability of winning is not necessarily 99 1/2%. Even if it were 99 1/2%, that would mean a loss every 200 days rather than every 996 days.

The simplest game that I could think of that meets the criteria is a game where a win pays exactly what you wager and the probability of a win is 0.4975. This gives an expectation of 0.4975 x Bet - 0.5025 x Bet = -0.0050 x Bet.

We have to adjust the Martingale to a limited Martingale since we are never allowed to bet more than the lesser of $25,000 or our remaining bankroll. If we always bet what's necessary to win our goal subject to the limits in the previous sentence, we can set up a recursive relationship for the probabilities of the remaining bankroll after each bet, then iterate it a few thousand times. This can be facilitated by an Excel spreadsheet.

We will bet ($1,001,000 - Bankroll) as long as we have at least $976,000, bet $25,000 when our bankroll is between $25,000 and $975,000, and bet our entire bankroll when it is below $25,000. It turns out that our probability of a win of $1000 is about 99.8763%, producing a loss of the bankroll about 1 day in every 808.5 days.

The assumption here is that the $1000 won on most days is spent for living expenses or the other things you mentioned but not added to the bankroll. The calculation would be a bit more involved if we were able to add the $1000 to our bankroll with each win, and would lengthen the expected duration before bankroll loss somewhat.

Frank could have figured this out if he had remembered a trick to add 1 or 2% in bounceback cash to this play. This would make the game positive so he could have used his positive expectancy math to get an answer and then simply subtract out the pseudo-bounceback.

The whole calculation might be considerably more difficult with a video poker game with a 1/2% house edge due to the numerous payoffs. We might also need to consider different strategies with different bankrolls. For example if we started with $1,000,000 and bet $1000, when dealt 'AQJT' J in a Jacks or Better game, we might consider keeping the pair of jacks over the 4-card royal draw, since drawing to the jacks would give us a better probability of reaching or exceeding our goal of $1,001,000. (It would be even more complicated if we were planning on adding winnings to our bankroll for future days! Then, we would likely need to hold the 4-card royal.)

Over the entire range of the bankroll, this would be extremely tough to work out any near-perfect strategy.

···

________________________________
From: nightoftheiguana2000 <nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2011 2:44 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: A Hypothetical Question

Sounds approximately right. On average with a Martingale, you win $1,000 on 995 days for $995,000, then on the 996th day (black Friday) you lose your original million plus the rake, but you still have $995,000 in previous winnings and the casino gives you a car or house or boat or something plus 10% loss rebate plus of course the super secret top whale "I lost a million in one day" card and free cruises and shrimp cocktails for life. Plus the cocktail waitress or pool boy (your choice) suddenly has a high school crush on you. You got the original million from a cash out house refi which is now under water so you mail in the keys. You write a book called "The Secret World of Martingale Hustlers and How they Beat the Casinos for Millions!!!". Woo Hoo!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Frank, we owe the negative EV gamblers of the world a debt of gratitude. If everyone heeded your advice then the last one out of Nevada bring the flag. Casinos could not exist if the masses were not willing to take the worst of it; video poker pros CANNOT EXIST without casinos.

You and I may not consider it entertainment but a lot of people do. There's nothing wrong with that. Let them have their fun. I had to think about this about 8 years ago when my nother and one of my sisters visited me in Las Vegas. I was showing them one of my haunts, the Horsehoe. They bolted for the bartops and played video blackjack. You know, the even money on blackjack sucker game.

What was I supposed to do, tell them not to play? Stand over them and say "No, don't play the hand that way, play it this way. Should I have marched them over to the 4 Queens 10/7 prog. and stand over them and tell them how to play? My mother don't like that kind of stuff. All I would be doing is turning it into work for them, AND ME!! They didn't come to Las Vegas to work. So I left them alone and let them have their fun. Sure they dusted some money off. So what? The only thing I straightened them out on was tipping $5 for a free drink.

There are a lot of professional people on this site that like to take casino vacations. What's wrong with them giving up a FEW tenths to get RFB. Nothing!

Let's don't forget Frank, if not for the negative expectation crowd, you and me would be stacking boxes for a living. Well, maybe not you but that's what I'd be doing.

Yea I know you're right Mickey. I really do wish everyone could win though. I hate to think what's makes me a living, costs others money.

I know it's necessary to maintain the biz.

Everything you are saying is true. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

~FK

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

Frank, we owe the negative EV gamblers of the world a debt of gratitude. If everyone heeded your advice then the last one out of Nevada bring the flag. Casinos could not exist if the masses were not willing to take the worst of it; video poker pros CANNOT EXIST without casinos.

You and I may not consider it entertainment but a lot of people do. There's nothing wrong with that. Let them have their fun. I had to think about this about 8 years ago when my nother and one of my sisters visited me in Las Vegas. I was showing them one of my haunts, the Horsehoe. They bolted for the bartops and played video blackjack. You know, the even money on blackjack sucker game.

What was I supposed to do, tell them not to play? Stand over them and say "No, don't play the hand that way, play it this way. Should I have marched them over to the 4 Queens 10/7 prog. and stand over them and tell them how to play? My mother don't like that kind of stuff. All I would be doing is turning it into work for them, AND ME!! They didn't come to Las Vegas to work. So I left them alone and let them have their fun. Sure they dusted some money off. So what? The only thing I straightened them out on was tipping $5 for a free drink.

There are a lot of professional people on this site that like to take casino vacations. What's wrong with them giving up a FEW tenths to get RFB. Nothing!

Let's don't forget Frank, if not for the negative expectation crowd, you and me would be stacking boxes for a living. Well, maybe not you but that's what I'd be doing.

I also agree with Mickey, of course, but I think the situation and relationship could be improved upon. Instead of the current large percentage of ploppies making it possible for a very small percent of successful advantage players, I think there could still be plenty of room for the body of ploppies to become more educated and more discriminating, thereby causing the casinos to be more competitive yet still profitable.

I think there could evolve an "optimal" relationship, and we're not even close to it yet.

You may say I'm a dreamer.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

Yea I know you're right Mickey. I really do wish everyone could win though. I hate to think what's makes me a living, costs others money.

I know it's necessary to maintain the biz.

Everything you are saying is true. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

Martingale strategy is good for tournaments, casinos that base promotions on losses, hustling a backer or money man, stiffing a bank or loan shark, getting a government bailout, and other stuff, oh yeah, and if you happen to have a wad of money that you don't know what to do with.

Your answer makes perfect sense to me. In a video poker game like 9/6 JOB, I think you would calculate the optimal strategy for each hand by assuming that the payout for each type of winning hand is the lesser of the standard payout and the amount needed to reach $1,001,000. In a game where you either lose your bet or double it, you would use a Martindale system starting at $1,000. But in video poker, I think you start out betting substantially less than $1,000/hand. This would still give you a good chance to obtain a $1,000 win while reducing your losses if you start out losing. I suspect that the optimal amount to bet would be a fixed or nearly fixed percentage of the amount you need to win get to $1,001,000. Once your bankroll drops to $400,000 it would probably make sense to bet the maximum of $25,000/hand since a 4K would pay $625,000. I don't know or remember enough from college to have any clue as to how to get a strategy for determining the optimal bet amount for each hand purely by mathematics or probability theory - I'm sure it is theoretically possible but probably extremely complex. I suspect that the best way to get a betting strategy would be to run simulations. I contend that the optimal hold/discard strategy for each hand is easy to calcualte (at least with software). The complicated part is determining how much to bet on each hand. If anyone who knows more than me has a better answer or can correct anything I'm saying here, please comment.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rick E. Percy" <ricke.percy@...> wrote:

Your answer is considerably funnier than mine, but I think the answer is highly dependent on the game, and a bit more complicated to calculate.

The 1/2% edge is on the expected amount that is to be wagered, not on the amount of the starting bankroll, so the probability of winning is not necessarily 99 1/2%. Even if it were 99 1/2%, that would mean a loss every 200 days rather than every 996 days.

The simplest game that I could think of that meets the criteria is a game where a win pays exactly what you wager and the probability of a win is 0.4975. This gives an expectation of 0.4975 x Bet - 0.5025 x Bet = -0.0050 x Bet.

We have to adjust the Martingale to a limited Martingale since we are never allowed to bet more than the lesser of $25,000 or our remaining bankroll. If we always bet what's necessary to win our goal subject to the limits in the previous sentence, we can set up a recursive relationship for the probabilities of the remaining bankroll after each bet, then iterate it a few thousand times. This can be facilitated by an Excel spreadsheet.

We will bet ($1,001,000 - Bankroll) as long as we have at least $976,000, bet $25,000 when our bankroll is between $25,000 and $975,000, and bet our entire bankroll when it is below $25,000. It turns out that our probability of a win of $1000 is about 99.8763%, producing a loss of the bankroll about 1 day in every 808.5 days.

The assumption here is that the $1000 won on most days is spent for living expenses or the other things you mentioned but not added to the bankroll. The calculation would be a bit more involved if we were able to add the $1000 to our bankroll with each win, and would lengthen the expected duration before bankroll loss somewhat.

Frank could have figured this out if he had remembered a trick to add 1 or 2% in bounceback cash to this play. This would make the game positive so he could have used his positive expectancy math to get an answer and then simply subtract out the pseudo-bounceback.

The whole calculation might be considerably more difficult with a video poker game with a 1/2% house edge due to the numerous payoffs. We might also need to consider different strategies with different bankrolls. For example if we started with $1,000,000 and bet $1000, when dealt 'AQJT' J in a Jacks or Better game, we might consider keeping the pair of jacks over the 4-card royal draw, since drawing to the jacks would give us a better probability of reaching or exceeding our goal of $1,001,000. (It would be even more complicated if we were planning on adding winnings to our bankroll for future days! Then, we would likely need to hold the 4-card royal.)

Over the entire range of the bankroll, this would be extremely tough to work out any near-perfect strategy.Â

________________________________
From: nightoftheiguana2000 <nightoftheiguana2000@...>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2011 2:44 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: A Hypothetical Question

Â
Sounds approximately right. On average with a Martingale, you win $1,000 on 995 days for $995,000, then on the 996th day (black Friday) you lose your original million plus the rake, but you still have $995,000 in previous winnings and the casino gives you a car or house or boat or something plus 10% loss rebate plus of course the super secret top whale "I lost a million in one day" card and free cruises and shrimp cocktails for life. Plus the cocktail waitress or pool boy (your choice) suddenly has a high school crush on you. You got the original million from a cash out house refi which is now under water so you mail in the keys. You write a book called "The Secret World of Martingale Hustlers and How they Beat the Casinos for Millions!!!". Woo Hoo!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You have $1000 and intend to play blackjack until you double the $1000 or go broke. This particular blackjack game has a theoretical return of 99.6% with basic strategy. You know basic strategy but don't know how to count cards. You will be the only one playing and the deck will be shuffled after every deal.

What is the optimal bet sizing to give you the best chance to double the $1000?

You have $1000 and intend to play blackjack until you double the $1000 or go broke. This particular blackjack game has a theoretical return of 99.6% with basic strategy. You know basic strategy but don't know how to count cards. You will be the only one playing and the deck will be shuffled after every deal.

What is the optimal bet sizing to give you the best chance to double the $1000?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:
----------------------------------------------------
Pretty easy (I think). Bet once - $1000. If U bet less every time U R playing @ 99.6%. I'm not taking into account chances 2 double & BJ, etc. so I cud B wrong.

While we're on the subject. I read about martingale quite a bit, but I've never heard this discussed. When I 1st went to Vegas in mid-70's I took w/ me a martingale system I came up w/ on my own. I had read "beat the dealer" & didn't want to count cards. It worked for the most part betting $2/hand.

I've done it on occasion over the years, but don't do much BJ these days. I certainly understand why martingale won't work on games like roulette, craps, etc. over the long haul, but when playing BJ & you've lost several bets....Ur @ say $250/hand cuz of losses. U get a BJ, paying 3:1 or U have a chance to double ur bet, which U don't do unless U R favored to win the hand. If U do win or have BJ, U get considerably more that ur original bet back. If U do, U of course start over. If U don't U again double bet. I realize U probably have a top limit, but if U got $$$ & guts enuff U just bet the max as many times as it takes to win, which U shud do eventually assuming ur playing a game where the house has a 1% or less edge.

Seems to me it shud still work...it has 4 me in limited tries. I never see this discussed. Wud B interested in others comments.

Now off to local casino, to a VIP party to meet new owners. Shud B pretty interesting 2 C what Delaware North does w/ Jumers, in my mind the best casino in Midwest, & better than most in Vegas 4 small player.

Winner! Chicken Dinner! By breaking your bets into increments of $1000, and betting over and over again, the compound effect of negative expectation gambling kicks in. Your best chance is to bet the whole thing at once. This speaks to the conflicting interests that gamblers have; they want to win, but they also want their money to last awhile.

My old buddy, Black Bart, the guy that taught me how to hustle credits about 1992, was a case study in compulsive gambling. He could never go to sleep with a dollar in his pocket.

His Margingale worked like this on the craps table. He'd bet 1 unit. If he lost that bet he'd double up and add one. So the next bet would be 3 units. If he lost that bet then the next bet was 15 units, etc.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "chev59el" <dje59@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@> wrote:
>
> You have $1000 and intend to play blackjack until you double the $1000 or go broke. This particular blackjack game has a theoretical return of 99.6% with basic strategy. You know basic strategy but don't know how to count cards. You will be the only one playing and the deck will be shuffled after every deal.
>
> What is the optimal bet sizing to give you the best chance to double the $1000?
>
----------------------------------------------------
Pretty easy (I think). Bet once - $1000. If U bet less every time U R playing @ 99.6%. I'm not taking into account chances 2 double & BJ, etc. so I cud B wrong.

Probably true. One hand of 9-6 JOB has only a 24% win rate, because on average when you win you go over the goal. The more hands you play, the more your win rate approaches 50% on a breakeven game, but the more hands you play, the more vig you pay on a negative game, so there your win rate approaches 0%. You should account for the vig, if your goal is win $1,000 but the vig is $5, then you really need to win $1005. If you have to put in $2000 coin-in to win the $1000, then the vig is $10, and you really need to win $1010, and so on. There's probably an optimal in there somewhere. You could figure it out with Lotspiech's gambler's ruin calculator:

http://www.lotspiech.com/poker/GamblersRuin.html

Or ask Frank what he'd charge to figure it out?

I have a for free guess, I'd guess about $100, but that could be way off, I just don't know. You have to run the numbers and see.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "alan3262" <alan3262@...> wrote:

But in video poker, I think you start out betting substantially less than $1,000/hand.

Assuming it was possible and you had all the time in the world wouldn't you just start with a 5 dollar bet and then double up each time. You would have to loose 8 hands in a row to loose. Odds of that are pretty close to impossible Wrong?

···

Sent from my iPhone

On May 7, 2011, at 12:14 PM, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "chev59el" <dje59@...> wrote:
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>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@> wrote:
> >
> > You have $1000 and intend to play blackjack until you double the $1000 or go broke. This particular blackjack game has a theoretical return of 99.6% with basic strategy. You know basic strategy but don't know how to count cards. You will be the only one playing and the deck will be shuffled after every deal.
> >
> > What is the optimal bet sizing to give you the best chance to double the $1000?
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Pretty easy (I think). Bet once - $1000. If U bet less every time U R playing @ 99.6%. I'm not taking into account chances 2 double & BJ, etc. so I cud B wrong.
>
>
>
Winner! Chicken Dinner! By breaking your bets into increments of $1000, and betting over and over again, the compound effect of negative expectation gambling kicks in. Your best chance is to bet the whole thing at once. This speaks to the conflicting interests that gamblers have; they want to win, but they also want their money to last awhile.

My old buddy, Black Bart, the guy that taught me how to hustle credits about 1992, was a case study in compulsive gambling. He could never go to sleep with a dollar in his pocket.

His Margingale worked like this on the craps table. He'd bet 1 unit. If he lost that bet he'd double up and add one. So the next bet would be 3 units. If he lost that bet then the next bet was 15 units, etc.

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For the heck of it I messed around a bit with the Lotspiech calculator. The lowest you can run it is for 5 and then 10, which equates to bet sizes of 1/4 and 1/8 of the goal respectively. So you know the following:

for bet size equals goal ($1000), win rate is 31%
for bet size equals 1/4 of goal ($250), win rate is 44%
for bet size equals 1/8 of goal ($125), win rate is 41%

So the optimum is somewhere between $1000 and $125.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "alan3262" <alan3262@> wrote:
>But in video poker, I think you start out betting substantially less than $1,000/hand.

Probably true. One hand of 9-6 JOB has only a 24% win rate, because on average when you win you go over the goal. The more hands you play, the more your win rate approaches 50% on a breakeven game, but the more hands you play, the more vig you pay on a negative game, so there your win rate approaches 0%. You should account for the vig, if your goal is win $1,000 but the vig is $5, then you really need to win $1005. If you have to put in $2000 coin-in to win the $1000, then the vig is $10, and you really need to win $1010, and so on. There's probably an optimal in there somewhere. You could figure it out with Lotspiech's gambler's ruin calculator:

http://www.lotspiech.com/poker/GamblersRuin.html

Or ask Frank what he'd charge to figure it out?

I have a for free guess, I'd guess about $100, but that could be way off, I just don't know. You have to run the numbers and see.