vpFREE2 Forums

8 NOV Dancer Column

#1

In a message dated 11/13/2005 3:32:32 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
harry.porter@verizon.net writes:

Obviously, I can't speak for others. But I'm loathe to dismiss the
value of an advanced penalty strategy in the manner that Skip does.
And I sense that underlying Bob's messages is the influence that fine
tuning a skill can have on the big picture.

- Harry

(I'm sure Bev will feel much more secure under the covers with me
tonight now :wink:

Harry you've said it all. You've made peace on vpFREE. I vote for Harry
Potter, I mean Porter for vpFREE Chaplin.
JT

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

Obviously, I can't speak for others. But I'm loathe to dismiss the
value of an advanced penalty strategy in the manner that Skip does.

I don't think Skip "dismisses the value". He can show mathematically that it has negligible value. There should be no question of that.

What seems strange to me is that some say that playing the simpler startegy leads to more errors than playing a much more complicated stategy. This is just an assumption that has not been proved (and to me is counter intuitive).

The arguement that someone who has learned the more complicated stategy will make fewer errors might be true for those who have been playing for a long time. But if you are a new player, I would think you would want to spend your time perfecting the simple stategy, rather than learning a complicated stategy that has very minimal benefit in terms of ER.

#3

Dick Kalagher replied to:

"Obviously, I can't speak for others. But I'm loathe to dismiss
the value of an advanced penalty strategy in the manner that Skip
does."

with:

I don't think Skip "dismisses the value". He can show
mathematically that it has negligible value.

I dunno Dick, that sure sounds like a "considered and dismissed" to me :wink:

The argument that someone who has learned the more complicated
stategy will make fewer errors might be true for those who have been
playing for a long time. But if you are a new player, I would think
you would want to spend your time perfecting the simple stategy,
rather than learning a complicated stategy that has very minimal
benefit in terms of ER.

Though not explicitly stated (I get wordy enough as it is), the
context of my comments (referring at one point to "reasonably
knowlegeable players) was intended to suggest that the discussion
applied to those who have basic strategy pretty much nailed ... not
new players. I apologize for any confusion.

In fact, I believe it wasn't too long ago on the winpoker group that
Dancer advised a relatively novice player to focus on basic strategy
and ignore penalty considerations.

- Harry

#4

I think Harry is right that I have dismissed the value of penalty cards and Dick is right that I have shown that the addional EV gained by complicating a strategy with them is of no significant value.

But I do find the "The more complicated it is, the easier it is to remember" school of thought interesting. It calls for a few questions.

- Suppose there were a game that HAD no penalty card situations, should we then shun that game altogether becuse it would be just too difficult, or would one make up phony penalty card situations to remember, in order to make it easier?
- If there were a strategy with only 5 or 6 lines, would it be just too incomprehensible for any but the greatest genius to remember?
- Should medical training be shortened to 3 months, while real estate school takes 12 years?
- Am I being too sarcastic? :slight_smile:
Skip

Harry Porter wrote:

路路路

Dick Kalagher replied to:

"Obviously, I can't speak for others. But I'm loathe to dismiss the value of an advanced penalty strategy in the manner that Skip does."
聽聽聽
with:

I don't think Skip "dismisses the value". He can show mathematically that it has negligible value.
聽聽聽

#5

Skip Hughes wrote:

But I do find the "The more complicated it is, the easier it is to
remember" school of thought interesting. It calls for a few
questions.

Yeah, and I could name another "school of thought" that's been in the
news lately that's right up there with that one ... but I'd like to
keep this post here and not shuttled over to FVF.

Give me a little more credit, huh, Skip? :wink: I'm suggesting the more
you sweat the details of a complicated strategy, the less likely you
are to suffer the consequences of distractions, fatigue, etc.

Of course, I'm one of those guys who, while taking pains to maintain a
big picture perspective, believes that if you sweat the small stuff
the big things will largely take care of themselves.

No doubt, it comes down to a matter of personal temperment. I doubt
you ever fluff a hold while swilling your beer and gobbling peanuts by
the handful, Skip. :wink:

- Am I being too sarcastic? :slight_smile:

You, Skip???

- H.

#6

Harry Porter wrote:

Give me a little more credit, huh, Skip? :wink: I'm suggesting the more
you sweat the details of a complicated strategy, the less likely you
are to suffer the consequences of distractions, fatigue, etc

Of course you are and I suggest that this biases the whole question, at least as I see it. Essentially, you are putting a whole lot more time and effort into the task.
I contend that
1. Most players who are not pros and have a life outside of video poker have a finite amount of time out of their lives to devote to studying video poker.
and
2. If one puts the same amount of that limited time and effort into the task of learning a strategy, one will learn the simpler strategy better and play it more accurately. Most penalty-free strategies have more than enough details to study without penalty cards.
聽聽I don't think if your thinking really contradicts that, nor does it contradict what I have said many times in these discussions (both here and on vpmail). "If you really have the time and desire to learn penalty card situations, there is no reason not too." But you don't need to for the EV gain, because it's inconsequential.

路路路

--
Thanks!
Skip
http://www.vpinsider.com

#7

These days I usually concentrate on non penalty card strategies. For me it
is a matter of time and priorities. My vp talent is very modest and the
time I devote to vp practice is limited while the list of games/strategies I
need to play to take advantage of the best play for me keeps on growing. I
don't have much doubt that this is the best choice for me. Those who have
more talent or time may well make a different decision. If I ever make
retirement or begin playing daily I may change my position. For what it is
worth, I do not notice any sacrifice of ev as a result of errors while
practicing non pen strategies. If I could be convinced that I was
sacrificing .2 or .3 of max EV I might well change my tune, but I don't see
it.

Chandler

#8

I have a desk top right in front of my tv in family room. I like to
practice win poker while watching news or, better yet, TV Land. Just
as soon as I scan vpfree I will be practicing as I watch Andy
Griffith Show. That's how I get er done.

Thought I'd pass on that great time saving tip.

Cheers....Jeep.
.
.

These days I usually concentrate on non penalty card strategies.

For me it

is a matter of time and priorities. My vp talent is very modest

and the

time I devote to vp practice is limited while the list of

games/strategies I

need to play to take advantage of the best play for me keeps on

growing. I

don't have much doubt that this is the best choice for me. Those

who have

more talent or time may well make a different decision. If I ever

make

retirement or begin playing daily I may change my position. For

what it is

worth, I do not notice any sacrifice of ev as a result of errors

while

practicing non pen strategies. If I could be convinced that I was
sacrificing .2 or .3 of max EV I might well change my tune, but I

don't see

路路路

.--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Chandler" <omnibibulous1@c...> wrote:

it.

Chandler