vpFREE2 Forums

6-coin JoB progressives

#1

There is a bank of these machines at The New Frontier. The payouts
for the 6th coin are the same as the 5th coin, but the progressive
meters reset at $100 for quads, $250 for SF, and $2000 for RF (at
least that's what I think they are). To calculate the ER for this
game, I used this formula in Dan Paymar's Video Poker book:

TotalAP = ($RF/$602) + ($SF/$142) + ($Quads/$6.35) + 76%

So at the reset values above, I get an ER of less than 97%.
However, the machines are advertised as "over 100% payback." I have
a few questions about these machines and would appreciate any
feedback.
(1) Can somebody explain the ER discrepancy?
(2) Is there an ER calculator/software program that allows you to
simulate this 6-coin game?
(3) Does basic JoB 9/6 strategy change when playing these?

Thanks in advance,
Jeff

#2

This bank has been around for some time now. The reason that it's
advertised at "over 100% payback" is that the contribution to the
progressive meters is greater than the negative EV of the game.

Warning: this bank is, and has been for years, haunted by "vultures":
leeches who pretend to play, but in reality play slow one-coin JOB
until a few suckers sit down and inflate the progresssives; at the
opportune time they jump in and play fast and furious until the meter
is busted back down again; then they go back into "lurk" mode. If you
are familiar with it, this is the same situation as "Flush Attack" a
few years back.

Now, if you can get a seat when the bank is otherwise full, this game
can be a lot of fun; just don't bother if you see a few
sloppily-dressed lowlife lounging at the bank, apparently waiting for
something to happen.

There are various strategy changes that occur as the quad/SF/RF move
up in value. By far the worst ones are the SF changes. You have to run
strategy charts with each prog at 100-coin increments to get the
proper decision points, and then memorize those points. Not worth it IMHO.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jeffcole2003oct" <jeff-cole@c...> wrote:

There is a bank of these machines at The New Frontier. The payouts
for the 6th coin are the same as the 5th coin, but the progressive
meters reset at $100 for quads, $250 for SF, and $2000 for RF (at
least that's what I think they are). To calculate the ER for this
game, I used this formula in Dan Paymar's Video Poker book:

TotalAP = ($RF/$602) + ($SF/$142) + ($Quads/$6.35) + 76%

So at the reset values above, I get an ER of less than 97%.
However, the machines are advertised as "over 100% payback." I have
a few questions about these machines and would appreciate any
feedback.
(1) Can somebody explain the ER discrepancy?
(2) Is there an ER calculator/software program that allows you to
simulate this 6-coin game?
(3) Does basic JoB 9/6 strategy change when playing these?

Thanks in advance,
Jeff

#3

I've had different experiences. I've had no problem getting a seat even when
the RF is over $4500. Plus I have never seen anyone playing one coin and
then going balls to the wall. When was the last time you saw this?

···

-----Original Message-----
From: rockofjello333 [mailto:rockofjello…@…com]
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 8:26 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: 6-coin JoB progressives

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jeffcole2003oct" <jeff-cole@c...> wrote:

There is a bank of these machines at The New Frontier. The payouts
for the 6th coin are the same as the 5th coin, but the progressive
meters reset at $100 for quads, $250 for SF, and $2000 for RF (at
least that's what I think they are). To calculate the ER for this
game, I used this formula in Dan Paymar's Video Poker book:

TotalAP = ($RF/$602) + ($SF/$142) + ($Quads/$6.35) + 76%

So at the reset values above, I get an ER of less than 97%.
However, the machines are advertised as "over 100% payback." I have
a few questions about these machines and would appreciate any
feedback.
(1) Can somebody explain the ER discrepancy?
(2) Is there an ER calculator/software program that allows you to
simulate this 6-coin game?
(3) Does basic JoB 9/6 strategy change when playing these?

Thanks in advance,
Jeff

This bank has been around for some time now. The reason that it's
advertised at "over 100% payback" is that the contribution to the
progressive meters is greater than the negative EV of the game.

Warning: this bank is, and has been for years, haunted by "vultures":
leeches who pretend to play, but in reality play slow one-coin JOB
until a few suckers sit down and inflate the progresssives; at the
opportune time they jump in and play fast and furious until the meter
is busted back down again; then they go back into "lurk" mode. If you
are familiar with it, this is the same situation as "Flush Attack" a
few years back.

Now, if you can get a seat when the bank is otherwise full, this game
can be a lot of fun; just don't bother if you see a few
sloppily-dressed lowlife lounging at the bank, apparently waiting for
something to happen.

There are various strategy changes that occur as the quad/SF/RF move
up in value. By far the worst ones are the SF changes. You have to run
strategy charts with each prog at 100-coin increments to get the
proper decision points, and then memorize those points. Not worth it IMHO.

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#4

jeffcole2003oct wrote:

So at the reset values above, I get an ER of less than 97%.
However, the machines are advertised as "over 100% payback." I have
a few questions about these machines and would appreciate any
feedback.
(1) Can somebody explain the ER discrepancy?
(2) Is there an ER calculator/software program that allows you to
simulate this 6-coin game?
(3) Does basic JoB 9/6 strategy change when playing these?

(1) Assuming that all players use optimal strategy, it's expected that
the average house payout will be over 100% provided the meter advance
rate is over 3% of coin in.

However, for any player, their ER is driven by the actual meter value
at the time they start playing and how long they play during the
average session. Without going into a specific calculation, suffice
it to say the higher the meter is on average when they sit down, the
high the player's ER. On whole, the overall player ER will equal the
house payout.

(2) The increase of the meter for each wager is a constant and doesn't
affect strategy. Optimal strategy is determined by current meter
values at all times. Determing optimal strategy requires software
that allows you to scale the 6 coin payouts into a coin wager that the
software accomodates, generally 1-5 coins.

The only software I'm aware that handles this nicely is VP Strategy
Master (I'm sure there are others). Winpoker and Frugal VP do not
cleanly handle this unless the scaled payouts happen to be integers.
The downsided is that vpsm doesn't provide an ER in most cases. You
might need to use rounded values in winpoker or FVP to estimate ER.
Perhaps others have better software solutions.

3) Strategy will change as progressive meters increase, just as with
any progressive.

- Harry

#5

You are SO wrong relative to the "lowlifes" that it is very funny.
The meters go up so slowly that no self respecting lurker would play
it merely for a quad that starts at $100 and has probably never been
over $108 or so.
The straight flush increment of $50, which happens seldom only adds
1/4% to the play, so there will NEVER be lurkers, etc.

Break even is approx $3333 and I play over $4000. Usually lose $5-600
before I give up or hit the Royal. Fortunitily I have hit the Royal
often enough that this is a profitable play. Have NEVER seen lurkers,
as you decribe them.

···

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 03:25:35 -0000, you wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jeffcole2003oct" <jeff-cole@c...> wrote:

There is a bank of these machines at The New Frontier. The payouts
for the 6th coin are the same as the 5th coin, but the progressive
meters reset at $100 for quads, $250 for SF, and $2000 for RF (at
least that's what I think they are). To calculate the ER for this
game, I used this formula in Dan Paymar's Video Poker book:

TotalAP = ($RF/$602) + ($SF/$142) + ($Quads/$6.35) + 76%

So at the reset values above, I get an ER of less than 97%.
However, the machines are advertised as "over 100% payback." I have
a few questions about these machines and would appreciate any
feedback.
(1) Can somebody explain the ER discrepancy?
(2) Is there an ER calculator/software program that allows you to
simulate this 6-coin game?
(3) Does basic JoB 9/6 strategy change when playing these?

Thanks in advance,
Jeff

This bank has been around for some time now. The reason that it's
advertised at "over 100% payback" is that the contribution to the
progressive meters is greater than the negative EV of the game.

Warning: this bank is, and has been for years, haunted by "vultures":
leeches who pretend to play, but in reality play slow one-coin JOB
until a few suckers sit down and inflate the progresssives; at the
opportune time they jump in and play fast and furious until the meter
is busted back down again; then they go back into "lurk" mode. If you
are familiar with it, this is the same situation as "Flush Attack" a
few years back.

Now, if you can get a seat when the bank is otherwise full, this game
can be a lot of fun; just don't bother if you see a few
sloppily-dressed lowlife lounging at the bank, apparently waiting for
something to happen.

There are various strategy changes that occur as the quad/SF/RF move
up in value. By far the worst ones are the SF changes. You have to run
strategy charts with each prog at 100-coin increments to get the
proper decision points, and then memorize those points. Not worth it IMHO.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#6

Good God. What gall, to tell me that something I saw with my own eyes
isn't true, just because YOU haven't seen (or failed to observe, more
likely) the same thing.

OBVIOUSLY these people don't bother to hang around the bank when it's
far from going positive---they just check back every several hours or
so, and if the bank DOES go significantly positive, you can bet your
butt that they'll all suddenly appear, like mushrooms after a spring
rain. I used to play at the Frontier three times a week, and I'd see
these same guys (out of a group of six or seven) hanging at this bank,
EVERY DAY. I'm sure that the meters have been slowed down since then,
so that the game is rarely positive, but that doesn't obviate my
essential point, that if the bank DOES go positive, it'll be swarmed.

Of course, I could have been delusional, and merely hallucinated these
people, in fact, maybe I never have been at the Frontier; maybe I've
been trapped inside the walk-in freezer at a Chuck-E-Cheese in Des
Moines all this time, and these experiences are the jumbled musings of
a half-frozen brain. In fact, I can't even be sure that YOU exist, or
that you even wrote the post that I THINK I'm quoting above.

Either that, or it's YOU who are SO wrong, even though it's not
particularly funny.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Elliott Shapiro <videopoker@m...> wrote:

You are SO wrong relative to the "lowlifes" that it is very funny.
The meters go up so slowly that no self respecting lurker would play
it merely for a quad that starts at $100 and has probably never been
over $108 or so.

#7

No matter what your views are on this ongoing discussion.....you gotta
love this paragraph. Dick Mck.

Of course, I could have been delusional, and merely hallucinated these
people, in fact, maybe I never have been at the Frontier; maybe I've
been trapped inside the walk-in freezer at a Chuck-E-Cheese in Des
Moines all this time, and these experiences are the jumbled musings of
a half-frozen brain. In fact, I can't even be sure that YOU exist, or
that you even wrote the post that I THINK I'm quoting above.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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#8

On my LAST play at the Frontier (07/13/2004) the Royal hit at over
$4500. The bank of 10 machines had 4 empty seats. That is a FACT.
On the play before that one, several months ago (05/09/2004), I hit it
for $4754.68. There were 5 empty seats at that moment. Also a FACT.
I do not rember the number of players when I hit it twice in 2003,
once for $4476 and the other for $5322 but in each case, there were
empty seats. Actually, on one of those occasions, my wife and I were
the ONLY players.
Years past, what you say was true but no longer.
I have a contact at the Frontier who calls me whenever the royal
exceeds $4000, so I am there relatively often and have NEVER seen the
bank completely full, have NEVER seen people hovering, recognize by
sight, most of the regular players and see them either playing or
leaving but NOT standing by.

···

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:25:07 -0000, you wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Elliott Shapiro <videopoker@m...> wrote:

You are SO wrong relative to the "lowlifes" that it is very funny.
The meters go up so slowly that no self respecting lurker would play
it merely for a quad that starts at $100 and has probably never been
over $108 or so.

Good God. What gall, to tell me that something I saw with my own eyes
isn't true, just because YOU haven't seen (or failed to observe, more
likely) the same thing.

OBVIOUSLY these people don't bother to hang around the bank when it's
far from going positive---they just check back every several hours or
so, and if the bank DOES go significantly positive, you can bet your
butt that they'll all suddenly appear, like mushrooms after a spring
rain. I used to play at the Frontier three times a week, and I'd see
these same guys (out of a group of six or seven) hanging at this bank,
EVERY DAY. I'm sure that the meters have been slowed down since then,
so that the game is rarely positive, but that doesn't obviate my
essential point, that if the bank DOES go positive, it'll be swarmed.

Of course, I could have been delusional, and merely hallucinated these
people, in fact, maybe I never have been at the Frontier; maybe I've
been trapped inside the walk-in freezer at a Chuck-E-Cheese in Des
Moines all this time, and these experiences are the jumbled musings of
a half-frozen brain. In fact, I can't even be sure that YOU exist, or
that you even wrote the post that I THINK I'm quoting above.

Either that, or it's YOU who are SO wrong, even though it's not
particularly funny.

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