vpFREE2 Forums

3 to a Royal

I was wondering if anyone feels this way about 3 to a royal in some
games. I have a difficult time not keeping 3 to a royal in some
games. Perfect strategy calls for keeping 4 to a flush (3 high
cards) in Double Bonus 10/7 and also keeping a high pair in 9/6 JoB.
I am sure there are a few other examples where the best ER is only
slightly higher for some holds over the ER of holding 3 to a royal.
   I can follow the rules, but I often feel, even if it goes aginst
perfect strategy, that I would rather take the risk of keeping 3 to a
royal in those situations. It seems only some royals will keep you
ahead over any longer period of time. Is this something I just need
to "get over" in order to really have any long term success?

Thanks,
Bob

futrend wrote:

I have a difficult time not keeping 3 to a royal in some
games. ... I am sure there are a few other examples where the best
ER is only slightly higher for some holds over the ER of holding 3
to a royal.
   I can follow the rules, but I often feel, even if it goes aginst
perfect strategy, that I would rather take the risk of keeping 3 to
a royal in those situations. It seems only some royals will keep
you ahead over any longer period of time.

Everyone here knows exactly what you're talking about. But as Karen
so aptly notes, survival between royals is every bit as critical as
hitting them.

If you're going to opt for a choice that is riskier (defined here as a
lesser chance of a hit) you had better be looking at improved ER. To
undertake greater risk at reduced ER is to venture into the play with
two strikes against you.

There are no guarantees. It may be the case that you're lucky the
first time you take a "pot shot" at a royal, in which case it'll take
a large number of foregone flushes or trips/full houses on future pot
shots to drain away the gain. However, you know from experience that
even on legitimate "ER-correct" shots the string of misses between
hits are many. Don't underestimate the cumulative cost of those pot
shots.

Bottom line, those occasions on which you see the proceeds of a royal
wiped out within only a couple of trips should tell you that a royal
isn't the be-all and end-all of vp.

- Harry

futrend wrote:
> I have a difficult time not keeping 3 to a royal in some
> games. ... I am sure there are a few other examples where the best
> ER is only slightly higher for some holds over the ER of holding 3
> to a royal.
> I can follow the rules, but I often feel, even if it goes aginst
> perfect strategy, that I would rather take the risk of keeping 3 to
> a royal in those situations. It seems only some royals will keep
> you ahead over any longer period of time.

Everyone here knows exactly what you're talking about. But as Karen
so aptly notes, survival between royals is every bit as critical as
hitting them.

Max-ER strategy is not designed for survival between royals. If a
player wishes to make "survival between royals" their first priority, then
max-ER becomes a suboptimal strategy. Players have to make a choice
between what they really want to accomplish when playing VP.

If you're going to opt for a choice that is riskier (defined here as a
lesser chance of a hit) you had better be looking at improved ER. To
undertake greater risk at reduced ER is to venture into the play with
two strikes against you.

This argument may be intuitively appealing but it is mathematically
incorrect. If a player wishes to maximize the probability that their
playing bankroll survives until they hit a royal, then an alternate
strategy is called for. You can maximize that probability or you can
maximize ER, but you can't do both simultaneously. The correct
strategy choice depends on which objective the player values
more highly, and that is a personal choice.

There are no guarantees. It may be the case that you're lucky the
first time you take a "pot shot" at a royal, in which case it'll take
a large number of foregone flushes or trips/full houses on future pot
shots to drain away the gain. However, you know from experience that
even on legitimate "ER-correct" shots the string of misses between
hits are many. Don't underestimate the cumulative cost of those pot
shots.

Bottom line, those occasions on which you see the proceeds of a royal
wiped out within only a couple of trips should tell you that a royal
isn't the be-all and end-all of vp.

Ah, but the blind pursuit of ER is also not the be-all and end-all of VP.
Different strokes for different folks. There is absolutely nothing wrong
with playing toward an objective that is not related to ER.

···

On Monday 20 December 2004 06:56 am, Harry Porter wrote:

Startegy will vary here depending on what 3 cards to the royal you have. T-J-Q and J-Q-K in DB I believe is the preferred hold. In JOB a high pair is better, but with a slight progressive3 to the Royal becomes a better draw. Use your computer VP program for the game of your choice and check it out, or better yet, try getting hands of 5 to the Royal.. The machine must lock up per regualtions and you won't have to make the decision.

···

From: "futrend" <futrend@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] 3 to a Royal
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 07:17:53 -0000

  I was wondering if anyone feels this way about 3 to a royal in some
games. I have a difficult time not keeping 3 to a royal in some
games. Perfect strategy calls for keeping 4 to a flush (3 high
cards) in Double Bonus 10/7 and also keeping a high pair in 9/6 JoB.
I am sure there are a few other examples where the best ER is only
slightly higher for some holds over the ER of holding 3 to a royal.
   I can follow the rules, but I often feel, even if it goes aginst
perfect strategy, that I would rather take the risk of keeping 3 to a
royal in those situations. It seems only some royals will keep you
ahead over any longer period of time. Is this something I just need
to "get over" in order to really have any long term success?

Thanks,
Bob

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "pesach kremen" <royalflush2222@h...>
wrote:
...

or better yet, try getting hands of 5 to the Royal.. The machine

must

lock up per regualtions and you won't have to make the decision.

...

This strategy is best reserved for multiplay machines, especially
100 or 50 play at high demoninations.

David

Bob;
I started to reply to this but soon found I was writing a feature
length article. I will post the whole thing here later, but here's
the direction of my thoughts:

First of all I with Mr. Jacobs in general in this area, although
our thoughts might go in somewhat different directions.

JB:
Choosing RF3>HI PR costs you .007% in EV, not enough to give a
second thought (amost anything you do will have a much greater
impact). I will go into much greater detail on that later. Meanwhile
the RF cycle is shortened to about 34K. You will get (on average)
more royals, straight flushes, flushes and straights and fewer
quads, trips, full houses, and (obviously) high pairs. Shortening
the RF cycle will reduce the chances of long royal droughts and
increase the chances of royal hot streaks. I think this is the basis
for the concept that this type of strategy change may actually
reduce risk. To pay for that, you are increasing the drain in
between royals by about .35%.

Since I have just been writing about strategies that reduce the
dependence on royals, it may seem strange that I would endorse a
concept that appears to go in the opposite direction. But I see no
contradiciton. The point is that there are a lot of different ways
you can modify strategies to change the "shape" of your video poker
results and this concept is especially important for visitors and
folks who don't play every day.

And I guess there's a second point, which I have belabored many
times over the years: getting hung up over three decimal point
differences in EV is, uh, a mistake (I'm being nice there).
To be continued...
Skip

futrend wrote:

···

  I was wondering if anyone feels this way about 3 to a royal in
some
games. I have a difficult time not keeping 3 to a royal in some
games. Perfect strategy calls for keeping 4 to a flush (3 high
cards) in Double Bonus 10/7 and also keeping a high pair in 9/6
JoB.
I am sure there are a few other examples where the best ER is only

slightly higher for some holds over the ER of holding 3 to a
royal.
   I can follow the rules, but I often feel, even if it goes
aginst
perfect strategy, that I would rather take the risk of keeping 3
to a
royal in those situations. It seems only some royals will keep
you
ahead over any longer period of time. Is this something I just
need
to "get over" in order to really have any long term success?

Thanks,
Bob

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

                   Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                       ADVERTISEMENT
                        [click here]

  ---------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

   * To visit your group on the web, go to:
     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/

   * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
     vpFREE-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

   * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
     Service.

you can play around with strategies with frugal vp
for example for 9/6 job:

computer perfect (max-er) strategy:
er=.9954,variance=19.78

5SF>4RF>PAT>4SF>HP>3RF>4FL>KQJT>LP>4STo>3SF0>

2RF2H>4STi3H>3SF1>KQJ>2H>JTs>QTs>1H>3SF2:

er=.9954,variance=19.40

same thing but 3RF>HP:
er=.9946,variance=21.90

if you know the R(1) number (for fpdw it's 0.999347), not only can you
calculate bankroll risk of ruin (ror=R(1)^(bankroll in bets)) but you
can generate the min bankroll strategy by adjusting the payoffs using
the following formula:
new payoff=1-R(1)^(old payoff)/(1-R(1))
for example for 800 royal flush:
new payoff=1-0.999347^800/(1-0.999347)=623
and putting the adjusted payoffs into a strategy generator like video
poker strategy master

Skip Hughes wrote:

JB:
Choosing RF3>HI PR costs you .007% in EV, not enough to give a
second thought (amost anything you do will have a much greater
impact). Meanwhile the RF cycle is shortened to about 34K.
Shortening the RF cycle will reduce the chances of long royal
droughts and increase the chances of royal hot streaks. I think this
is the basis for the concept that this type of strategy change may
actually reduce risk. To pay for that, you are increasing the drain
in between royals by about .35%.

Your post was a valuable prod, Skip. It's often that I read and post
in some haste just before stepping out the door -- was the case here.
I gave Steve a bit of short shrift.

On a quick pass I didn't think a strategy shift pushing more royals
was consistent with "min-loss" (reduced loss between royals) strategy
because I usually associate min-loss with positive game play,
particularly progressives.

In a positive play situation min-loss strategy will deemphasize
royals. However, in the case of a negative game such as JB, min-loss
will look to reduce the royal cycle to cut the inherent drain of the
negative game.

(Just to clarify a contradiction that may appear on the surface
between that statement and your final sentence -- the drain for each
hand between royals is increased by about .35% in the min-loss
strategy, but because the royal cycle is shortened the total loss
between royals is reduced.)

Note that when you're playing with cash benefits that turn JB to a
positive prospect, "min-loss" will again deemphasize royal shots (hi
pair is "restored" to being favored over 3RF, e.g.)

btw, my concern with "deviation from max-ER" discussions lies in the
realm of thinking vp strategy for the average player should "keep it
simple". I certainly grasp and support the idea that if a change only
involves a minimal ER hit there's little reason not to go for it if it
suits you. But there are other complications introduced that sway me
to think it's best to steer clear in general discussion.

- Harry

Interesting analysis Skip. I did not know the difference between high pair
and 3RF hold was so small.

···

_____

From: Skip Hughes [mailto:skiphug…@…net]
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 2:35 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] 3 to a Royal

Bob;
I started to reply to this but soon found I was writing a feature
length article. I will post the whole thing here later, but here's
the direction of my thoughts:

First of all I with Mr. Jacobs in general in this area, although
our thoughts might go in somewhat different directions.

JB:
Choosing RF3>HI PR costs you .007% in EV, not enough to give a
second thought (amost anything you do will have a much greater
impact). I will go into much greater detail on that later. Meanwhile
the RF cycle is shortened to about 34K. You will get (on average)
more royals, straight flushes, flushes and straights and fewer
quads, trips, full houses, and (obviously) high pairs. Shortening
the RF cycle will reduce the chances of long royal droughts and
increase the chances of royal hot streaks. I think this is the basis
for the concept that this type of strategy change may actually
reduce risk. To pay for that, you are increasing the drain in
between royals by about .35%.

Since I have just been writing about strategies that reduce the
dependence on royals, it may seem strange that I would endorse a
concept that appears to go in the opposite direction. But I see no
contradiciton. The point is that there are a lot of different ways
you can modify strategies to change the "shape" of your video poker
results and this concept is especially important for visitors and
folks who don't play every day.

And I guess there's a second point, which I have belabored many
times over the years: getting hung up over three decimal point
differences in EV is, uh, a mistake (I'm being nice there).
To be continued...
Skip

futrend wrote:

  I was wondering if anyone feels this way about 3 to a royal in
some
games. I have a difficult time not keeping 3 to a royal in some
games. Perfect strategy calls for keeping 4 to a flush (3 high
cards) in Double Bonus 10/7 and also keeping a high pair in 9/6
JoB.
I am sure there are a few other examples where the best ER is only

slightly higher for some holds over the ER of holding 3 to a
royal.
   I can follow the rules, but I often feel, even if it goes
aginst
perfect strategy, that I would rather take the risk of keeping 3
to a
royal in those situations. It seems only some royals will keep
you
ahead over any longer period of time. Is this something I just
need
to "get over" in order to really have any long term success?

Thanks,
Bob

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

                   Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                       ADVERTISEMENT
                        [click here]

  ---------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

   * To visit your group on the web, go to:
     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/

   * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
     vpFREE-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

   * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
     Service.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT

<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12974u7k7/M=298184.5639630.6699735.3001176/D=gr
oups/S=1705065732:HM/EXP=1103661293/A=2495208/R=0/SIG=11egg01lg/*http:/www.n
etflix.com/Default?mqso=60188914> click here

<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.5639630.6699735.3001176/D=groups/S=
:HM/A=2495208/rand=355159505>

  _____

Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/
  
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vpFREE-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:vpFREE-unsubscr…@…com?subject=Unsubscribe>
  
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]