vpFREE2 Forums

15/9 NSUD and Ugly Ducks

#1

what7do7you7want wrote:

This may be picking a nit, but there is no such thing as 15/9 NSUD.

What's the problem with calling it 15/9 NSU, if the only difference between its paytable and the regular NSU paytable are that 16/10 changes to 15/9? We do the same thing with every other game, i.e. 10/7 DB and 9/7 DB, 8/5 BP and 7/5 BP, 10/6 DDB and 9/6 DDB etc etc. It's a convenient way of specifying a variation to a base paytable.

Many years ago, someone decided FPDW was too good, and so they
created the 15/9 table you refer to. That game became known as
Ugly Ducks. Later on, casinos decided they needed to offer something
better than Ugly Ducks and yet still below 100%. So someone boosted
the SF and Quints by 5 coins and that game got to be know as
NSUD = not so ugly ducks.

I'm curious about the actual history, since I wasn't around when the initial downgrades of FPDW occurred. I previouly posted a "best guess" that the actual downgrade was probably to change the payoff on 4-of-a-kinds from 5 to 4. That is, FPDW going from 1-2-2-3-5-9 to 1-2-2-3-4-9. Nobody gave any argument against it at the time, and that's why the VPFREE paytables now assign the name "Ugly Ducks" to 1-2-2-3-4-9. However, I stated at the time that I was just guessing and might be totally wrong.

Are you sure that the first downgrades for FPDW (1-2-2-3-5-9-15) was what you call "Ugly Ducks" (1-2-3-4-4-9-15)? That seems unlikely since they are completely different types of paytables, but anything's possible, especially if they thought that people are looking for the "15/9" part. Sounds like the post by "bornloser" agrees with you. If this is the case, then the vpFREE paytables should move the definition of "Ugly Ducks" to the same line as 15/9 NSU, pNSU, etc etc.

JD

#2

between its paytable and the regular NSU paytable are that 16/10
changes to 15/9? We do the same thing with every other game, i.e. 10/7
DB and 9/7 DB, 8/5 BP and 7/5 BP, 10/6 DDB and 9/6 DDB etc etc. It's a
convenient way of specifying a variation to a base paytable.

Those are all variations of a type of game called Double Double Bonus.

I think all Deuces Wild that are plain ( no bonus or loose etc) should
be called deuces wild with their given paytable describing data.
Original FPDW could carry the modifier as FPDW, the 16/10 type could
carry the NSUD modifier, and likewise the Illinois deuces could carry
that modifier, but still with the paytaable idientifier. As far as I
am concerned there is only one NSUD, one FPDW, one Illinois deuces etc.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Douglass <john.douglass@...> wrote:

what7do7you7want wrote:
> This may be picking a nit, but there is no such thing as 15/9 NSUD.

What's the problem with calling it 15/9 NSU, if the only difference

#3

what7do7you7want wrote:

> This may be picking a nit, but there is no such thing as 15/9
> NSUD.

John Douglass wrote:

What's the problem with calling it 15/9 NSU, if the only difference
between its paytable and the regular NSU paytable are that 16/10
changes to 15/9? We do the same thing with every other game, i.e.
10/7 DB and 9/7 DB, 8/5 BP and 7/5 BP, 10/6 DDB and 9/6 DDB etc
etc. It's a convenient way of specifying a variation to a base
paytable.

In general sense, John is correct. But in my mind, "NSUD" is a
specific reference to the 99.73% paytable and no other.

vpFREE, in categorizing various DW paytables, seized upon the
"1-2-3-4-4-200" footprint of the 99.7% paytable and extended the NSUD
moniker to any other game sharing those payouts. However, keeping in
mind that NSUD stands for "not so ugly ducks", is it really
appropriate to refer to the 10/10/20 97% paytable as "not so ugly"?
(or even "pseudo-not so ugly"?)

Just as with Airport deuces, NSU deuces should be a reference to a
single paytable -- I fully expect that Skip Hughes, who coined the
name, intended as much.

It makes sense to group "1-2-3-4-4-200" paytable games together. But
some other name would be much more appropriate. There's truth in the
adage "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet". But would
anyone really be satisfied were we to call a swan and a turkey by the
same name?

#4

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...>
wrote:

I agree with Harry. NSUD refers to a specific pay table. (Before I
happened upon Skip's designation for the game, I called it K-Mart
Deuces, because the same pay table was used in that little red
plastic hand held game sold there. Radica was the manufacturer, I
think, and I remember John Grochowski once calling the game Radica
Deuces).

In general sense, John is correct. But in my mind, "NSUD" is a
specific reference to the 99.73% paytable and no other.

vpFREE, in categorizing various DW paytables, seized upon the
"1-2-3-4-4-200" footprint of the 99.7% paytable and extended the

NSUD

moniker to any other game sharing those payouts. However, keeping

in

mind that NSUD stands for "not so ugly ducks", is it really
appropriate to refer to the 10/10/20 97% paytable as "not so ugly"?
(or even "pseudo-not so ugly"?)

Just as with Airport deuces, NSU deuces should be a reference to a
single paytable -- I fully expect that Skip Hughes, who coined the
name, intended as much.

It makes sense to group "1-2-3-4-4-200" paytable games together.

But

some other name would be much more appropriate. There's truth in

the

adage "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet". But would
anyone really be satisfied were we to call a swan and a turkey by

the

···

same name?

#5

The NSUD entry in the Glossary has a link to a Skip Hughes vpFREE
post that gives some background on UD and NSUD:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/message/47771

On vpFREE, UD has referred to a group of games rather than to a
particular paytable.

Here's the Glossary entry for UD:

UD: Ugly Ducks (Deuces) - Deuces wild VP games with poor paytables

I've just changed the Glossary entry to:

UD: Ugly Ducks (Deuces) - Deuces wild VP games with an ER of less
than 99.0%

I've also changed the name of the "NSUD" family of deuces in vpFREE's
Paytables Directory to the "Deuces Wild 44" family (DW44):

http://members.cox.net/vpfree/PayV.htm#DW44

All DW games that pay 4 for a full house and 4 for quads (except DWdlx)
are included in this family.

vpFREE's DataBase pages now list "Airport Deuces" as "15/9 DW44".

Suggestions and comments are welcome.

vpFae
vpFREE DataBase Coordinator
vpFae@Cox.net

#6

Wasn't this the 15-9-4-4 paytable, named because of their supposed
prevalance on Illinois riverboats ?

#7

T think I basically said the same thing, but of course you said it much
better. I am glad we agree.

DWK

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

what7do7you7want wrote:
> > This may be picking a nit, but there is no such thing as 15/9
> > NSUD.

John Douglass wrote:
> What's the problem with calling it 15/9 NSU, if the only difference
> between its paytable and the regular NSU paytable are that 16/10
> changes to 15/9? We do the same thing with every other game, i.e.
> 10/7 DB and 9/7 DB, 8/5 BP and 7/5 BP, 10/6 DDB and 9/6 DDB etc
> etc. It's a convenient way of specifying a variation to a base
> paytable.

In general sense, John is correct. But in my mind, "NSUD" is a
specific reference to the 99.73% paytable and no other.

#8

I've also changed the name of the "NSUD" family of deuces in vpFREE's
Paytables Directory to the "Deuces Wild 44" family (DW44):

http://members.cox.net/vpfree/PayV.htm#DW44

All DW games that pay 4 for a full house and 4 for quads (except

DWdlx)

are included in this family.

vpFREE's DataBase pages now list "Airport Deuces" as "15/9 DW44".

Suggestions and comments are welcome.

I like it much better than before. Maybe somebody can come up with a
better name or improvement, but I like it. More or less along the
lines of my comments but expanded to make the 44 distinction.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFae" <vpFae@...> wrote:

#9

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000" <deuceswild1000@...>
wrote:

> I've also changed the name of the "NSUD" family of deuces in

vpFREE's

> Paytables Directory to the "Deuces Wild 44" family (DW44):
>
> http://members.cox.net/vpfree/PayV.htm#DW44
>
> All DW games that pay 4 for a full house and 4 for quads (except
DWdlx)
> are included in this family.
>
> vpFREE's DataBase pages now list "Airport Deuces" as "15/9 DW44".
>
> Suggestions and comments are welcome.

I like it much better than before. Maybe somebody can come up with

a

better name or improvement, but I like it. More or less along the
lines of my comments but expanded to make the 44 distinction.

I play D/W at the TAJ in AC. I call the 1-2-3-4-4-10-12 pay table TAJ
Deuces. It is a 97.58 paytable. While many, more experienced
players frown on plying it, it is better than the 8/5 JoB table. I
have both my Win Poker and VPW set for it and I practice it regularly.
And, for the past 2 years, I am in the plus.
Ted

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFae" <vpFae@> wrote:

#10

Anybody have any information on playable VP in Macau. Will be there tomorrow and just thought I would ask. Thanks!

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#11

I didn't see any when I was there last year. In fact I didn't see much VP to speak of
anywhere.

MO

Anybody have any information on playable VP in Macau. Will be there tomorrow and just

thought I would ask. Thanks!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Clark <jaycee5353@...> wrote:

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#12

http://www.wizardofmacau.com/

I didn't see any when I was there last year. In fact I didn't see

much VP to speak of

anywhere.

MO

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> Anybody have any information on playable VP in Macau. Will be

there tomorrow and just

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mofromto2" <mike69tigg@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Clark <jaycee5353@> wrote:
thought I would ask. Thanks!
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