vpFREE2 Forums

1099s versus W2Gs for tournaments - my experience

In my recent tax audit the IRS people I spoke with said 100% that slot
tournaments (for which you dont pay a fee) don't qualify as gambling winnings -
but must be reported separately as 1099-Misc - Misc. income for which you cannot
deduct gambling losses against.

One person suggested I try to get the casinos to change what I received as a
1099 Misc into a W2G. When I contacted several casinos I found it nearly
impossible to contact anyone who knew anything about when one is issued versuses
the other, or more importantly, why. The answer seemed to be "it is our
casino policy" - or "probably because it is an IRS rule" (a rule they could not
quote to me!).

Some casinos have issued W2Gs to winners of tournaments, if some people paid
entry fees in the tournament - even if not everyone did! For example, a
blackjack tournament where some people paid a rebuy fee to play a 2nd time.
Everyone (whether they paid or not) got a W2G, not a 1099.

Meanwhile, in drawings or tournaments, where you got more entries due to
playing more -- i.e., the more you gambled, the more likely you were to win, the
casinos normally issue 1099-Misc. I tried to make the case that this was
"gambling income" directly related to gambling, and the more I gambled the more
likely I would have been to win.

But the IRS people I spoke with adamantly said that no, if it was a
1099-Misc., it was not gambling income, no matter what.

It seemed that the only way to argue would have been for us to Appeal.
After 6 months, and numerous problems (such as IRS ignoring or losing our
responses), we decided to give up and pay the taxes, even though we felt this was
incorrect. We had plenty of documentation on wins/losses - including
contemporary gambling diary, but still it seemed to us an uphill battle. We also
became concerned that with the closed-minded people we were dealing with, there
was no way to determine what the final result might be during the appeals
process. What if they continued to lose our responses? What if they began
inquiring about comps?

And of course, while we appealed, interest would continue to mount until a
final verdict.

After the stress, we just settled.

So if you do get 1099s and get audited, you could very well run into the
same mindset from IRS personnel we did. At that point, you probably would have
to go the appeals route to have 1099s considered as Gambling Income, no
matter what source.

This is not to say that many people do just lump gambling-related 1099s in
with W2gs, list them on the return, and deduct losses against them. They do.
And most are never audited.

If your Gambling Income total is less than your W2G/1099 total you are far
more likely to be audited. At this point you may end up either having to
agree with the IRS or fight up to the appeals or Tax Court level.

Also, the more W2G income you have, the more likely you are to be audited.
We had over $200,000 in reported W2Gs. Interestingly, we actually had
received more W2Gs than ever were reported to the IRS.

Finally, we were net losers for the year 2004 where we were audited, but due
to the large number of W2Gs and 1099s pushing up our Adjusted Gross Income,
we lost our exemptions and had a our deductions reduced, causing us to end up
owing over $4000 in extra taxes. Taxes paid for losing money!!!

Totally unfair you are thinking -- yep -- but that is the way the tax code
is written. Fortunately we live in Las Vegas, NV, so don't have to worry
about state income taxes.

We've also learned that our adjusted gross income is now used to determine
Medicare cost per month. So we will have to pay extra for Medicare this year
and next!

As a result of all this, we have vastly cut back on our gambling.

Anyone getting a lot of W2Gs (or perhaps anyone getting any!) should
definitely keep an accurate gambling diary, buy Jean Scott's Tax book, and play
attention to their taxes, to make sure they are deducting enough to cover taxes.

If audited, you will have to decide whether to give in or fight through the
appeals process for subjects such as using "gaming session wins/losses", 1099s
for Gambling Income, and so on. Unfortunately gambling IRS laws were
written many years ago, before so many people got W2Gs, before gambling was so
widespread, before inflation and changes in the tax code. The many grey areas
of gambling are not covered by tax law or even tax court cases. The major
weapon you have is keeping excellent records and being willing to suffer through
the stress and hassle of any audits.

Whenever sending documents to the IRS, by the way, make sure you keep
copies!! As I said, the IRS lost some responses (and ignored some stuff too). Be
vigilent!

Best regards!

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If audited, you will have to decide whether to give in or fight

through the

appeals process for subjects such as using "gaming session

wins/losses", 1099s

for Gambling Income, and so on. Unfortunately gambling IRS laws

were

written many years ago, before so many people got W2Gs, before

gambling was so

widespread, before inflation and changes in the tax code. The

many grey areas

of gambling are not covered by tax law or even tax court cases.

The major

weapon you have is keeping excellent records and being willing to

suffer through

the stress and hassle of any audits.

Whenever sending documents to the IRS, by the way, make sure you

keep

copies!! As I said, the IRS lost some responses (and ignored

some stuff too). Be

vigilent!

Best regards!

There are tax court cases - there is Libutti which addressed the
1099 issue - because most slot tournaments are by invitation only
based on your prior gambling, you should have qualified for
the "nexus" to gambling the Tax Court in Libutti cited. There is a
more recent case just decided in a video poker case, where the judge
said there is no difference whether something is 1099 or W2-g
reported.

Your problem was the you represented yourself. Anyone playing enough
money through to qualify for 7* should be able to afford a tax
attorney. You would have gotten much different treatment in my view,
if you were represented by counsel, maybe it would be negative EV,
but rather than have an excessive entanglement with the IRS, the
lawyer would handle it.

Do you really think the low paid low level employees you were
dealing with are even familiar with the Libutti case? I doubt it. If
you live in Nevada you and other residents should be lobbying Harry
Reid to get these antiquated laws updated. Reid as Majority Leader
is an a position to push through what are on a national scale minor
changes in the law - just indexing W2-Gs to inflation, would make
the threshold over $7,000 not $1,200.

ยทยทยท

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, misscraps@... wrote:

re: the comment that the IRS held fast to 1099 reporting and what that
means. If there is anything the gov't types understand well, it is a
piece of paper. All they care is they have this piece of paper and
what it says is FINAL. If someone had given you the W2G (
even if in error), that would not matter. You would have a W2G and
they would treat it as such. They just need their piece of paper and
want to be able to check off on their checklist that they have it.

But, they can NEVER, EVER, EVER change a 1099 to a W2G. They are
different. End of discussion.

Meanwhile, if the Casinos cared about their customers, they would stick
to W2G's. Of course, if they really cared, they would have more slots
that paid at $1150 vs $1250. Most of us would prefer to win the lower
amount.

Your papers please!?