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1099 vs W2-g Pet peeve - live poker tournaments

10. Re: 1099 vs W2-g Pet peeve - live poker tournaments
Posted by: "queenofcomps" queenofcomps@cox.net queenofcomps
Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:24 pm ((PDT))

<> rules; a previous post suggested that the IRS did have some rules about poker
tournaments, but I think that is probably not the case >>

Actually it IS the case. Back some years ago the Horseshoe (when the WSOP was
there) and the IRS had a disagreement about how to treat poker tournaments. The
Horseshoe threatened to cancel the tournament - and perhaps it was delayed, I
can't remember exactly - but they finally came to an agreement, which is still
in place.

Marissa and I are going to expand the tax book for next year, including a new
chapter on live/online poker. Here is a paragraph from the rough draft.

"Paperwork rules for poker tournaments are different than for tournaments in
other casino games, where the paperwork usually comes in a 1099 form for a
tournament win over $600. Typical IRS complexity comes with the regulations
governing the taxation of poker-tournament income. In theory, tournaments are
just a ring game where all the players put their money in the pot and the last
person remaining wins the pot. But that's not how the IRS views it. Without
going into a long drawn-out explanation as to why [referring to the Horseshoe
agreement], in most (but not all) cardrooms today, you receive a W-2G if you win
more than $600 in a tournament. The peculiar thing is that satellite tournaments
are not considered "tournaments" by the IRS and therefore no W-2Gs are issued,
even though satellite-tournaments prizes can be as high as $10,000! (But of
course, if you win $10K in a satellite, you're required to report it as
income-even without the W-2G.)

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - "FRUGAL VIDEO POKER"
This new book (autographed) and other
frugal products are now available at my
new Web site, http://queenofcomps.com/.
E-mail address is queenofcomps@cox.net.

I most certainly believe you, because I KNOW you've done the research -- it is interesting, then, that Bellagio does NOT issue a W2G (at least, did not in summer 2005 for their weekday tournament winners, with about 45 entrants, $500 fee, to be very specific). Also interesting that I have received W2G in other tournaments only when I exceeded the $1200 threshhold, same point as with video poker. And have never received a 1099.

Perhaps the IRS has rules, but my experience has still been that casinos do not operate in the same manner from one casino to the next -- if there are indeed rules that apply in all poker tournaments, many of the casinos are not following them, which surprises me somewhat!

And, on the other hand, only "somewhat" :slight_smile:

Or perhaps the agreement was only between Horseshoe and the IRS, and other casinos have not reached such an agreement with the IRS, and for some reason are not bound by it??

If the latter is not the case, then what IS the rule that the casinos are supposed to follow, and if we find a path other than that rule objectionable, how do we get a casino to adhere to it?

i.e., are they SUPPOSED to issue a W2G, or a 1099, or are they not obliged to issue anything?

Incidentally, I can see why a TRUE satellite win is not considered a "win", because the value of the win is usually issued in the form of an entry to the larger tournament, so it is immediately "lost" or "expensed" -- and then any winnings in the larger tournament would get taxed, and presumably reported on one of those government forms of some kind.

--BG

···

===============

<<Or perhaps the agreement was only between Horseshoe and the IRS, and other casinos have not reached such an agreement with the IRS, and for some reason are not bound by it?? If the latter is not the case, then what IS the rule that the casinos are supposed to follow, and if we find a path other than that rule objectionable, how do we get a casino to adhere to it? i.e., are they SUPPOSED to issue a W2G, or a 1099, or are they not obliged to issue anything?>>

I think, in the matter of poker tournaments, casinos USUALLY follow the agreement reached with the Horseshoe - but some do not, for whatever reason. In any case, it was an agreement and not a "rule" or a tax court decision.

Therefore, you probably are wasting your time to ask a casino to do something that is not their usual policy.

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - "FRUGAL VIDEO POKER"
This new book (autographed) and other
   frugal products are now available at my
   new Web site, http://queenofcomps.com/.
   E-mail address is queenofcomps@cox.net.

Hi all:

My name is Bryan and I just joined the group. I knew the answer to this question, bit I let the IRS answer the question.

Bryan Richhart

···

---
From the IRS:

*Topic 419 - Gambling Income and Expenses*

Gambling winnings are fully taxable and must be reported on your tax return. You must file Form 1040 <http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040.pdf> (PDF) and include all of your winnings. Gambling income includes, but is not limited to, winnings from lotteries, raffles, horse races, and casinos. It includes cash winnings and also the fair market value of prizes such as cars and trips. For additional information, refer to Publication 525 <http://www.irs.gov/publications/p525/index.html>, //Taxable and Nontaxable Income.//

A payer is required to issue you a Form W-2G <http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw2g.pdf> (PDF) if you receive certain gambling winnings or if you have any gambling winnings subject to Federal income tax withholding. All gambling winnings must be reported irrespective as to whether any portion thereof is subject to withholding. in addition, you may be required to pay an estimated tax on your gambling winnings. For information on withholding on gambling winnings, refer to Publication 505 <http://www.irs.gov/publications/p505/index.html>, //Tax Withholding and Estimated Tax//.

You may deduct gambling losses only if you itemize deductions. Claim your gambling losses as a miscellaneous deduction on Form 1040, Schedule A <http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040sab.pdf> (PDF). However, the amount of losses you deduct may not be more than the amount of gambling income you have reported on your return. It is important to keep an accurate diary or similar record of your gambling winnings and losses. To deduct your losses, you must be able to provide receipts, tickets, statements or other records that show the amount of both your winnings and losses. Refer to Publication 529 <http://www.irs.gov/publications/p529/index.html>, //Miscellaneous Deductions//, for more information.

queenofcomps wrote:

<<Or perhaps the agreement was only between Horseshoe and the IRS, and other casinos have not reached such an agreement with the IRS, and for some reason are not bound by it?? If the latter is not the case, then what IS the rule that the casinos are supposed to follow, and if we find a path other than that rule objectionable, how do we get a casino to adhere to it? i.e., are they SUPPOSED to issue a W2G, or a 1099, or are they not obliged to issue anything?>>

I think, in the matter of poker tournaments, casinos USUALLY follow the agreement reached with the Horseshoe - but some do not, for whatever reason. In any case, it was an agreement and not a "rule" or a tax court decision.

Therefore, you probably are wasting your time to ask a casino to do something that is not their usual policy.
________________________________________
Jean $�ott - "FRUGAL VIDEO POKER"
This new book (autographed) and other
   frugal products are now available at my
   new Web site, http://queenofcomps.com/.
   E-mail address is queenofcomps@cox.net.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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Bryan Richhart wrote:

I knew the answer to this question, but I let the IRS answer the
question ...

Good capture of the basics of IRS reporting guidance for gambling, Bryan.

However, within the entire body of published IRS guidance there's a
gap in directly addressing specific gambling situations that's large
enough to easily absorb the Grand Canyon.

In many instances there are, at best, only vaugue indications of what
the IRS might consider to be a preferred treatment, often in conflict
with IRS positions in other similar cases. The question re reporting
of tournament winnings represents such a case.

- Harry