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10-play math (was Re: Triple Play Quarters Vs Single Line Dollars)...

Okay - a friend finally explained to me my problem with the math of 10-play. Actually it isn't a problem with the math; it's a problem of semantics.

He says that playing 4420 base 10-play hands gives a 63% chance of hitting at least one Royal. For him, that is a "reasonable expectation." Playing 5000 base hands gives about a 69% chance, which is even more "reasonable," in his opinion.

I guess I have much higher expectations for the word "reasonable." Before I would reasonably expect to get a royal in a 10-hour session I would have to have at least a 95% chance. I am a terribly conservative gambler. In fact I have learned from experience that I am happier if I NEVER expect anything particular in the short term. I guess I have gone through too many long long losing stretches.

I ALWAYS expect to win and get my fair share of royals in the long term. Brad and I have 15 years of experience that proves this is a very doable thing for us. But for the short term there are absolutely no guarantees - and I don't expect anything and therefore I am never disappointed! And when the big wins and the jackpots do appear I am ecstatic!!!!

By the way, Brad and I did something today we hadn't done for a very long time - play VP all day long. We played quarter 10-play for a total of 11 hours between us and did not get a royal. Lost $4000. Switched to quarter Hundred Play "to have more fun." Played 4 hours total - got one royal and won back the $4000 plus a profit of $305. Now that is fun!!!!!

By the way, for the inexperienced, all this math about royal cycles, etc.: remember that you could get the royals "right on time" but you are likely to still lose in the long term if you are playing a negative game!!!!

Since I worship at the altar of long-term EV, royal cycles have never been very important to me. They rarely come "on time" anyway and knowing how many cycles I am "behind" is information that would just be discouraging. I like to look to the future with optimism!

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
   for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
   of your questions!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Where do you play that has positive 100-play quarters?

Myra

···

On 15-Jan-06, at 9:53 PM, Jean Scott wrote:

Okay - a friend finally explained to me my problem with the math of 10-play. Actually it isn't a problem with the math; it's a problem of semantics.

He says that playing 4420 base 10-play hands gives a 63% chance of hitting at least one Royal. For him, that is a "reasonable expectation." Playing 5000 base hands gives about a 69% chance, which is even more "reasonable," in his opinion.

I guess I have much higher expectations for the word "reasonable." Before I would reasonably expect to get a royal in a 10-hour session I would have to have at least a 95% chance. I am a terribly conservative gambler. In fact I have learned from experience that I am happier if I NEVER expect anything particular in the short term. I guess I have gone through too many long long losing stretches.

I ALWAYS expect to win and get my fair share of royals in the long term. Brad and I have 15 years of experience that proves this is a very doable thing for us. But for the short term there are absolutely no guarantees - and I don't expect anything and therefore I am never disappointed! And when the big wins and the jackpots do appear I am ecstatic!!!!

By the way, Brad and I did something today we hadn't done for a very long time - play VP all day long. We played quarter 10-play for a total of 11 hours between us and did not get a royal. Lost $4000. Switched to quarter Hundred Play "to have more fun." Played 4 hours total - got one royal and won back the $4000 plus a profit of $305. Now that is fun!!!!!

By the way, for the inexperienced, all this math about royal cycles, etc.: remember that you could get the royals "right on time" but you are likely to still lose in the long term if you are playing a negative game!!!!

Since I worship at the altar of long-term EV, royal cycles have never been very important to me. They rarely come "on time" anyway and knowing how many cycles I am "behind" is information that would just be discouraging. I like to look to the future with optimism!

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
   for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
   of your questions!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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<<Where do you play that has positive 100-play quarters?>>

It is an 8/5 Bonus at the Palms, which in itself is not positive, of course, but with drawing entries and qualifying for a higher tier and higher BB and bonus points, today it was positive for us. Wouldn't be usually.

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
   for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
   of your questions!

Thanks Jean for digging deeper into the problem. For a while I was
worried that my math was severely wrong, and yet I couldn't find
anything wrong with it, which was starting to worry me (making
mistakes happens, but not being able to find them is a serious
problem).

I guess that by default several of us tend to use "reasonable" as
meaning "higher than 50%", probably because placing an even money bet
on such an event has a positive EV. Well, I don't know if there are
several of us, but I know that's the case for me.

From your point of view where "reasonable" means "near-certain", you
need to consider much longer sessions to reach your notion of a
reasonable expectation. To be precise, it takes about 4.3 times as
long to reach a 95% chance as it takes to reach a 50% chance, and
(almost) exactly 3 times as long to reach a 95% chance as it takes to
reach a 63.7% chance. Putting those ugly numbers aside, it means that
you consider that you have a "reasonable" chance of hitting
"something" if you want for 3 cycles of that "thing".

Going back to our original discussion, it means that it takes about
13250 deals of 10-play to hit your 95% "reasonable" expectation for a
royal flush, and I agree that it's essentially impossible to do for a
single person, and hard for a couple (and probably not something you'd
want to do every day).

JBQ

···

On 1/15/06, Jean Scott <QueenofComps@frugalgambler.biz> wrote:

Okay - a friend finally explained to me my problem with the math of 10-play. Actually it isn't a problem with the math; it's a problem of semantics.

I think we got caught on different understandings of the
word "reasonable". My reasonable is not as high as 95% but
certainly higher than 63% which is close to 50/50.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@f...>
wrote:

Okay - a friend finally explained to me my problem with the math

of 10-play. Actually it isn't a problem with the math; it's a
problem of semantics.

He says that playing 4420 base 10-play hands gives a 63% chance

of hitting at least one Royal. For him, that is a "reasonable
expectation." Playing 5000 base hands gives about a 69% chance,
which is even more "reasonable," in his opinion.

I guess I have much higher expectations for the

word "reasonable." Before I would reasonably expect to get a royal
in a 10-hour session I would have to have at least a 95% chance. I
am a terribly conservative gambler. In fact I have learned from
experience that I am happier if I NEVER expect anything particular
in the short term. I guess I have gone through too many long long
losing stretches.

I ALWAYS expect to win and get my fair share of royals in the long

term. Brad and I have 15 years of experience that proves this is a
very doable thing for us. But for the short term there are
absolutely no guarantees - and I don't expect anything and therefore
I am never disappointed! And when the big wins and the jackpots do
appear I am ecstatic!!!!

By the way, Brad and I did something today we hadn't done for a

very long time - play VP all day long. We played quarter 10-play
for a total of 11 hours between us and did not get a royal. Lost
$4000. Switched to quarter Hundred Play "to have more fun." Played
4 hours total - got one royal and won back the $4000 plus a profit
of $305. Now that is fun!!!!!

By the way, for the inexperienced, all this math about royal

cycles, etc.: remember that you could get the royals "right on
time" but you are likely to still lose in the long term if you are
playing a negative game!!!!

Since I worship at the altar of long-term EV, royal cycles have

never been very important to me. They rarely come "on time" anyway
and knowing how many cycles I am "behind" is information that would
just be discouraging. I like to look to the future with optimism!

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
   for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
   of your questions!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jean–WOW!!! 11 hours of VP play! My brains would be "fried"!
  I was just wondering. . . if you and Brad set out to "play" do you
  generally quit when you hit a Royal??? Do you set a win/loss limit before you leave home and then quit at that point? Or do you quit
  when you're tired or what? Could you share this info please if you don't mind. If you've answered this before, I apologize but I'm a little new to vpfree. . . . . Also, if earning double/triple/5x/6x points factors into it–would you play longer than "usual"??? Just wondering. . .

···

Jean Scott <QueenofComps@frugalgambler.biz> wrote:
  Okay - a friend finally explained to me my problem with the math of 10-play. Actually it isn't a problem with the math; it's a problem of semantics.. . . . . .I guess I have much higher expectations for the word "reasonable." Before I would reasonably expect to get a royal in a 10-hour session I would have to have at least a 95% chance. I am a terribly conservative gambler.. . . . . .By the way, Brad and I did something today we hadn't done for a very long time - play VP all day long. We played quarter 10-play for a total of 11 hours between us and did not get a royal. Lost $4000. Switched to quarter Hundred Play "to have more fun." Played 4 hours total - got one royal and won back the $4000 plus a profit of $305. Now that is fun!!!!!

Jean H--
   
  You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes.
You can steer yourself any direction you choose.
You're on your own. And you know what you know.
  And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go.... Dr. Suess

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<<Jean–WOW!!! 11 hours of VP play! My brains would be "fried"!
  I was just wondering. . . if you and Brad set out to "play" do you
  generally quit when you hit a Royal??? Do you set a win/loss limit before you leave home and then quit at that point? Or do you quit when you're tired or what? . Also, if earning double/triple/5x/6x points factors into it–would you play longer than "usual"??? "

We WERE exhausted after 11 hours in the casino. However, Brad and I weren't both playing the whole time. On the 4 hours of 100-play we took turns so one could have the fun of watching while the other played. Besides our arms were getting tired!

This was a VERY unusual situation. We usually play 1-3 hours in one day - and only about 2 or 3 times a week. Brad plays more since I send him out on gambling errands while I write! :slight_smile: We never have a win/loss stop limit so hitting a royal isn't the signal for us to quit. We are almost always playing until we reach a specific goal, like earning enough points for a certain promotion or for a certain bounce-back level. If there isn't a specific goal, yes, we would usually play longer if there were bonus points or there was a very good promotion, making the EV high. But the usual reason for quitting is that we get tired and/or the smoke is getting to us. Funny about Sunday, the smoke didn't bother us as much as usual - but we were very tired when we finally came home.

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
   for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
   of your questions!