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10% gaming loss bonuses

I recently ran across an interesting promotion idea.

Here is the premise. A casino offers to cover 10% of all your
losses on a given day. This sounds pretty cool. It looks like it
is worth 5% if the game is a break even game. However, it is really
quite a bit trickier. Here is my analysis. If I have erred, please
correct me.

Lets start by assuming the game is a coin toss.

Now suppose we have $60. How do we maximize the return. The answer
is to simply bet all the money on our first bet. We win 60 or lose
54 The Expected value is simply (60 - 54) / 120 = $3, which is the
5% I mentioned earlier. Assuming the game is favorable to the
house, this represents an upper bound on the EV we can get.
However, we can surely do worse. Suppose we get clever and decide
to make 6 $10 wagers. Not so clever. When we consider that there
are 64 WLWLLL sequences and sum the products of the overall win or
loss and their respective probabilites, the answer is the EV for
this scheme. What we get is about 94 cents.

So it seems we are stuck with a single fairly large wager that will
have a nice EV, but we can't really make much money unless we make a
very large wager.

Can we do better?

I think so. The key is to seek out a game where the return is not 2
for 1. Let's look at an imaginary roulette game where there are no
zeros. Now let's imagine having $100 to wager. Suppose we bet it
all at once. Our expected value is

35*(-100 + 10) + 3500 / 36 = $9.72

This is a very interesting result. We have broken through the 5%
barrier by choosing a game with a high payoff. That 5% upper bound
was only valid for games that had even money bets. What about
single zero roulette. Now the equation changes a bit.

36*(-100 + 10) + 3500 / 37 = $7.02

A nasty hit, but we are still far above 5%.

What about sequences of wagers. Let's consider betting $100 twice,
but quitting if we win the first wager. Probability of winning the
first wager is 1/37. Probability of making and winning winning 2nd
wager is 36/37 * 1/37. Probability of making and losing 2nd wager
is 36/37 * 36/37. These give wins of $3500, $3400, and -$180.
Summing the products give $94.595 + $89.408 - $170.40 = $13.603.

This is a lower EV than we would get by betting the $200 all at once.
In that case, we would simply double the EV from the single $100
wager and arrive at $14.04.

Even so, we see that we are doing a better job of reducing risk
without doing so much damage to our return.

Lets revert to the no zero version and lengthen the sequence. Our
absolute EV will continue to rise (but by smaller sizes) until we
reach a loss of $3500. At that point, we gain nothing by playing
further. If we win, we lose the 350 bonus that we have coming. The
equations becomes 35*(-90) + 3500 - 350 / 36 = 0.

For this imaginary no zero roulette game, we can see that $100
wagers will continue to yield over 5% return until we have made
roughly 17 wagers. The math is really mess now, but it seems that
our average sequence about 14 wagers retruning an average of 7% or
so. Our EV for this scheme is roughly $98. Of course, we will lose
the entire $1400 quite often. I am guessing this will happen about
60% of the time. As before, our EV is best if we just bet it all to
start. If we just bet $1400 to start, we get an EV of $136.08.

When we consider other imaginary games with various returns, we see
a common theme. We can reduce the damage caused from splitting our
wager into pieces. However, we will always face the prospect of
losing until playing gives no benefit. For games like roulette,
this is just the point where a winning bet no longer gets us above
even.

Now let's change gears and look at fixed wagers size games. Suppose
we had a no zero roulette game with a table maximum of $10. Now we
cannot simply wager our $350 on the first turn. Instead, we would
be forced to employ a sequence of wagers. As shown above, we will
maximize our EV by playing as long as we have not yet lost 35 units.

What is surprising is that this also applies to the winning side.
Suppose we win the 21st game. We now have a tidy profit of $150.
Should we quit? Not necessarily. If we bet again, our wager just
has an ER of 100%. However, there is a non-zero probability that we
will fall back down to even. Once that happens, we are once again
able to start making wagers with a large advantage. Of course, if
we are fortunate enough to win again, we will have a much lower
chance of falling back to even. Since the game is break even, we
may never again fall back to even! So, we should quit when
retruning to even is not very likely and will probably take quite
awhile. This is subjective. Even if you are ahead 100 units, there
is some small advantage to be gained by further play. My guess is
that quitting somewhere between 17 and 35 units is about right.
If we consider our earnings per unit time, we certainly want to set
some sort of stop win so that we don't pursue a tiny advantage.

Now finally, what about VP. VP is tricker, since it has lots of
payouts. However, let's consider Jacks or better. Let's take a
major liberty and just focus on quads. That hand is worth 25 units.
The above analysis seems to indicate that we probably do very well
if we play until we lose 25 units or until we get ahead about 15
units, though playing until you are ahead 25 units may work well too.

Just how much this adds to the overall return is unclear. A rough
approximation of your advantage at a given time is to take %10 and
divide it by 25. Now subtract that number from 10% for each bet we
lose. This number is .004. What we see is that after we are 24
bets down, the ER is now almost precisely 100%, since the game
itself carries an ER of 99.55% or so. If you seek to play only with
an advantage of 1% or better, you probably want to quit after losing
about 22 units.

One interesting thing about VP in this scenario is that the ebb and
flow of lesser hands will tend to lengthen our play (and therefore
our EV). But the fact that quads are much harder to hit than their
payofff will tend to reduce the lenght of our play.

If our game was 10/7 DB, we would get much more volatility, but we
would get to play until we lost roughly 48 units. With the reduced
pays on other hands, that may or may not translate to more coin in.
An analysis would be very difficult, but it could be that the JOB
game create a larger average session wager sum and end up returning
a higher EV, though the hourly EV probably lands in favor of the
10/7 DB game.

Just what this adds to your EV is not clear, but it clearly gives
you the chance to play with a high advantage for a decent hourly
return. On JOB, you start with well over a 5% edge (since there
are payouts are higher than even money). You eventually will wander
too far from break even and find that playing is no longer
profitable enough. If you simply lose 22 hands in a row, you will
have had an EV of roughly $3 on dollar JOB. However, the average
coin in for this scenario is probably quite a bit higher. I'd
guess you should average at least 60 hands with an average return
somewhere around 3%. That is still only about a $9 overall EV.

This shows that even now the game is a marginal affair. Sure, you
get a great hourly EV, but you only play for five minutes.

Now as I write, I have finally figured out the best way to handle
this, though I don't know if you could pull it off. Suppose the
casino offered this to two players. Each player places a $1000
wager on pass/don't pass. If they are risk averse, they hedge with
a $67 bet on hard 12(sic). If 12 comes, they win $10. If not, they
win $100 less the $67 hedge. This is free money with no risk.

In fact, you can do even better with more players. Suppose you have
6 players bet 6 numbers on a single zero roulette game. Now you
hedge the zero. For a $1000 each, you lose 5 * $900 and win $5000.
You do get hit with a big charge for the hedge. $180 gives you a
$300 win on zero. Of course, I have no clue how one could actually
get away with this, but it is a good thing to keep in the back of
your mind.

Jim Morgan

quadzilla_666 wrote:

I recently ran across an interesting promotion idea.

Here is the premise. A casino offers to cover 10% of all your
losses on a given day. This sounds pretty cool. It looks like it
is worth 5% if the game is a break even game. However, it is really
quite a bit trickier. Here is my analysis.

snip

I'd be interested in seeing the exact language of that casino promotion. I have a gut feeling that the casino is only going to give you 10% of your _NET_ losses which you would compute at the end of a given day. Your analysis, on the other hand, is based on recouping the 10% at the end of each and every play. There is a big difference in the consequences of the two different methods. For example, in your 50/50 game, at the end of the day, after perhaps 20,000 coin tosses, on _average_, players will break even, and therefore without a _net_ loss, the casino is not going to have to pay anything to those players. But using your method, on _average_, players will have lost one half of those 20,000 coin tosses, and the casino is going to have to make good on 10% of one-half of the total amount of money they have bet. I can't even _imagine_ that it would work that way.

As far as your math goes, I don't have time to analyze it right now, but I'll try to take a close look at it later. The reason I want to examine it is that I find it hard to believe that there is a difference in the ER in the same game with the same odds and same payback, merely because you choose to make fewer bets of higher denominations. For example, that would be like saying that in a JoB-9/6 game, the ER is somehow higher if you played 1 million hands on a $10.00 machine than if you played 10 million hands on a one dollar machine. I don't buy it, but I guess the first thing we'd need to do is determine which of the two ways the casinos is going to pay the 10% of losses rebate, mentioned in my first paragraph. If the casino is paying as I suspect, then the two players, on average, should have the same losses at the end of the day, comparing 1 million hands x $50.00 max coin ... and ... 10 million hands x $5.00 max coin ... and I think their resulting 'adjusted' ERs will therefore be the same. But even if we use your suggested method, and we somehow kept track of each losing hand and gave the 10% rebate, I will be surprised, upon close analysis, to find that there is still any difference, assuming that we get an average distribution on both machines, and if 1 million hands is considered sufficient to represent long-term play. But if you are, in fact, correct, I think this has some rather interesting implications for coin-out cash-back, and perhaps other promotions, as well.

Bill Velek

[snip]

As far as your math goes, I don't have time to analyze it right now, but
I'll try to take a close look at it later. The reason I want to examine
it is that I find it hard to believe that there is a difference in the
ER in the same game with the same odds and same payback, merely because
you choose to make fewer bets of higher denominations.

It doesn't change ER, but ER isn't everything. Playing to maximize
ER will almost certainly reduce the average number of dollars that
can be extracted from the promotion, after factoring in losses from
playing a negative game.

For example,
that would be like saying that in a JoB-9/6 game, the ER is somehow
higher if you played 1 million hands on a $10.00 machine than if you
played 10 million hands on a one dollar machine.

Suppose you play $10 million on a single play, and you walk away
win or lose, and repeat this once a day for your entire life. If you have
the bankroll to play this way endlessly, you get a $1 million rebate
every 2.2 days (on average) and lose $100,320 in ER during that same
period, for a net gain of $408,945 per day of play.

Now suppose that instead of playing a single hand per day, you play
a $10 machine for 1 million hands per day. On average, you lose
$45,600 per day, but your standard deviation is only $17,320 (this
is a rough guess assuming a variance of 30). Breakeven is 2.6
std.devs away, so your average rebate is rarely going to get much
higher than $5,000 per day. Now imagine $10 million of daily action
on a 1 cent machine. You still lose $45,600 per day, but now your
standard deviation is $547. You lose almost the exact same amount
every day, and your rebate is $4,560.

This is an example where variance is your friend. Big bets mean more
variance, leading to larger average rebates. ER isn't changes, but
ER isn't what matters here.

But if you are, in fact, correct, I think this has some
rather interesting implications for coin-out cash-back, and perhaps
other promotions, as well.

Promotions are an area where alternate strategies can have a large
impact. I would guess that min-cost gives the playing strategy which
extracts the most dollar value from this promotion. Playing to
maximize ER is almost certainly sub-optimal here.

···

On Saturday 07 February 2004 08:55 am, Bill Velek wrote:

Thanks for the explanation, Steve. You did a good job of clarifying this. I think that you are right that the key to this is variance -- something that was never mentioned at all in quadzillas post.

Steve Jacobs wrote:

[snip]

> As far as your math goes, I don't have time to analyze it right now, but
> I'll try to take a close look at it later. The reason I want to examine
> it is that I find it hard to believe that there is a difference in the
> ER in the same game with the same odds and same payback, merely because
> you choose to make fewer bets of higher denominations.

It doesn't change ER, but ER isn't everything. Playing to maximize
ER will almost certainly reduce the average number of dollars that
can be extracted from the promotion, after factoring in losses from
playing a negative game.

snip

This is an example where variance is your friend. Big bets mean more
variance, leading to larger average rebates. ER isn't changes, but
ER isn't what matters here.

snip

···

On Saturday 07 February 2004 08:55 am, Bill Velek wrote:

I've thought of a simpler explanation that doesn't require variance.

By making a single bet, and either leaving with a rebate or your
winnings, you effectively play a game where you do collect a
rebate for each loss. If you play many games before getting a
rebate on net losses, any winnings cancel out much of the expected
loss, effectively "shielding" most of the losses from having the
rebate apply to them, and diluting the rebate. The more hands
you average over, the more diluted the rebate.

···

On Sunday 08 February 2004 10:57 pm, Bill Velek wrote:

Thanks for the explanation, Steve. You did a good job of clarifying
this. I think that you are right that the key to this is variance --
something that was never mentioned at all in quadzillas post.

Steve Jacobs wrote:

> Thanks for the explanation, Steve. You did a good job of clarifying
> this. I think that you are right that the key to this is variance --
> something that was never mentioned at all in quadzillas post.

I've thought of a simpler explanation that doesn't require variance.

By making a single bet, and either leaving with a rebate or your
winnings, you effectively play a game where you do collect a
rebate for each loss.

Yes, but I think that the result is still due, in a manner of speaking, to variance, but I'm not going to spend time discussing that now because I think that, regardless of cause, what _really_ matters most is the _effect_. Even knowing the point at which we can use the 'rebate' to its maximum effect might be pretty much worthless information when compared to _practical_ considerations such as the selection of games available, our session stake and lifetime bankroll, our enjoyment of the game, distance from casino, what we can expect to make, long-term, in full-days of play on advantage machines with or without that promotion, as well as the various comps we can expect to receive or sacrifice. For instance, even if I had the bankroll to go everyday, I wouldn't drive 3 hours each way to the casino to play just a single game of advantage VP, even if someone were to prove to me, beyond all doubt, that I would have the highest possible ER (e.g., by playing an entire session-stake for a typical day, but in a single $500.00 bet playing max-coin on a hundred-dollar machine). What would that _really_ be worth? Six hours of driving, plus the travel expense, isn't worth averaging even a full 10% profit on only $500.00 worth of coin-in (for the math challenged, with an increase in ER to 110%, the profit would be only $50.00/day). We could even add a full 1-percent cash-back on my $500.00 coin-in, for an additional $5.00 cash-back, and the resulting total return of $55.00/day _still_ wouldn't even cover my travel expenses, let alone my time. And just try to get a comp doing that; I think you would hear: "Sir, we can't comp you even a _buffet_ because you have played just _1_ game, for a total of only _8_ seconds worth of play-time and a coin-in of just $500.00!

There is a theoretical point, though, where modifying our behavior because of this promotion could become worthwhile; i.e., it might be worth changing my plans to go to the casinos on a different day than planned in order to be there when the promo is available, or to take a slightly larger bankroll than usual to play a bit longer to reach that ideal amount of play, or to settle for a little less play than normal because that is the ideal place to stop, and that sort of thing. If this promo were available to me, the way I would approach it would be to look at the various percentage levels with a RoR calculator, such as Jeff's "Gambler's Ruin" calculator -- http://www.lotspiech.com/GamblersRuin.html -- at the very least, and then see if I could devise a formula which considers several factors which are important to me.

Now, just out of curiosity, Steve, do you think that the following statement by quadzilla is valid? -- especially the part about this promo giving one a chance to play with a _HIGH_ advantage for a decent _hourly_ return? Quadzilla said: "Just what this adds to your EV is not clear, but it clearly gives you the chance to play with a high advantage for a decent hourly return. On JOB, you start with well over a 5% edge (since there are payouts are higher than even money)." Uhhh ... that's HIS awkward wording -- not mine.

I'm going to plug some values in here that _MOST_ of us can relate to. If the average player were to try to utilize this offer to enhance an _HOURLY_ rate by playing 800 hands per hour for 2, 3, 4, or 5 hours of playing time (to make the trip to the casino worthwhile) ... then on a dollar JoB-9/6 machine, playing full-coin, with combined cash-back/bounce-back/comps worth, let's say, 1%, and a $500.00 session stake (100 bets), I get the following percentile figures from Jeff's RoR calculator. I set the stake at $125 (still 100 bets, but at full-coin quarters) and arbitrarily set a 'retire with' value at $125 to get the percentile brackets shown below, along with these results:

Hands Played: 1600 2400 3200 4000
Lose all $500. 33.0% 49.0% 58.0% 64.0%
$400. to $500. 3.3% 2.0% 1.2% 0.8%
$300. to $400. 6.5% 4.0% 2.5% 1.5%
$200. to $300. 8.2% 5.0% 3.1% 1.9%
$100. to $200. 8.6% 5.3% 3.3% 2.0%
$0 to $100. 8.1% 5.0% 3.1% 1.9%
Rest of the time you end with some money.

Note that those values are not exact because there is a small percentage of times that you would 'retire' with double your initial stake; presumably if you continued to play for the designated number of hands (1600, 2400, 3200, or 4000), there would be some portion of those 'retired' percentages that would end up in a losing bracket, but I think that is only a very small percentage that won't make any _practical_ difference in this analysis. Also note that these figures are based on playing perfect strategy for max-ER. I don't know whether this promo would make it worthwhile to bother working up an altered-strategy, and then learning it, so I'll leave that for others who are interested.

Below, I assume the middle value for each range given above, and then multiply them by the above-percentages; I am also adding the last column with figures for playing a single $500.00-bet game for further comparison:

                         1600 hands 2400 hands 3200 hands 4000 hands 1 hand
COIN-IN ($5/hand) = $8,000.00 $12,000.00 $16,000.00 $20,000.00 $500.00
ER at 99.5439% = 7,963.51 11,945.27 15,927.02 19,908.78 $500.00
C-Back/B-Back/comps (1%) 80.00 120.00 160.00 200.00 5.00
Lose all $500. = $500. x33.0%=165.00 x49.0%=$245.00 x58.0%=$290.00 x64.0%=$320.00 x54.543=
$400. to $500. = $450. x3.3%= 14.85 x2.0%= 9.00 x1.2%= 5.40 x0.8%= 3.60
$300. to $400. = $350. x6.5%= 22.75 x4.0%= 14.00 x2.5%= 8.75 x1.5%= 5.25
$200. to $300. = $250. x8.2%= 20.50 x5.0%= 12.50 x3.1%= 7.75 x1.9%= 4.75
$100. to $200. = $150. x8.6%= 12.90 x5.3%= 7.95 x3.3%= 4.95 x2.0%= 3.00
$ 0 . to $100. = $ 50. x8.1%= 4.05 x5.0%= 2.50 x3.1%= 1.55 x1.9%= 0.95 Totals: $240.05 $290.95 $318.40 $337.55 $272.72

Avg Daily Promo Rebate:(10%) 24.01 29.10 31.84 33.76 27.27
ER at 99.5439% = 7,963.51 11,945.27 15,927.02 19,908.78 497.72
C-Back/B-Back/comps (1%) 80.00 120.00 160.00 200.00 5.00
                   Totals: 8,067.52 12,094.37 16,118.86 20,142.54 529.99
minus coin-in: - 8,000.00 - 12,000.00 - 16,000.00 - 20,000.00 - 500.00
PROFIT before travel costs: 67.52 94.37 118.86 142.54 29.99
Hours Played: /2 /3 /4 /5 ?
Per Hour Profit b4 travel: 33.76 31.46 29.72 28.51 ?

Now let's make some reasonable assumptions about travel; unless you are a local to casinos (most folks are not), you will probably be traveling at LEAST an average of 40 miles one-way, or a total of 80 miles. Using an average of 2 people per car, and a travel cost of 30 cents per mile, brings the per person cost per trip to $12.00. Each person will also have a total of 2 hours travel time. I will bet that this is a VERY conservative total figure for most folks on this list. If we then deduct those figures from the above, we get a more accurate picture, as follows:

PROFIT before travel costs: 67.52 94.37 118.86 142.54 29.99
after deducting $12.00 travel: 55.52 82.37 106.86 130.54 17.99
Hours Played plus 2 hrs trvl: /4 /5 /6 /7 /2
Per Hour ADJUSTED Profit: 13.88 16.47 17.81 18.65 9.00

Personally, I can't see any "decent hourly return" that quadzilla sees as being attributable to this particular promo unless his idea is to go all the way to the casino to gamble perhaps 60 games like I think he might have suggested. The gross amount of your rebate for the entire day actually increases once you play more than about 2,040 hands (Jeff's RoR figures render a Promo rebate of $27.25 at that point), although admittedly your hourly rate and overall ER do decline.

Is the promo worthwhile. Sure it is, if you aren't sacrificing other things like comps or making a trip just to get this one promo. I'm not a dollar player -- I play quarters (about 4,000 hands a day), so the promo would be worth about $8.44 cents/day to me at that rate. I also drive about 160 miles (3 hours) _each_ way, so I can't afford to look at this as an hourly rate opportunity, and I doubt that very many other players can either.

Cheers.

Bill Velek

···

On Sunday 08 February 2004 10:57 pm, Bill Velek wrote:

Steve Jacobs wrote:
> > Thanks for the explanation, Steve. You did a good job of clarifying
> > this. I think that you are right that the key to this is variance --
> > something that was never mentioned at all in quadzillas post.
>
> I've thought of a simpler explanation that doesn't require variance.
>
> By making a single bet, and either leaving with a rebate or your
> winnings, you effectively play a game where you do collect a
> rebate for each loss.

Yes, but I think that the result is still due, in a manner of speaking,
to variance, but I'm not going to spend time discussing that now because
I think that, regardless of cause, what _really_ matters most is the
_effect_.

I think variance _is_ an effect here, not a cause. But, I also think it
is worth nothing that this is a situation where the overall result is
favorable to the player and making a single large wager maximizes
ER and also increases variance.

Even knowing the point at which we can use the 'rebate' to
its maximum effect might be pretty much worthless information

I disagree. IMO, knowing how to optimize play is never
"worthless information".

when
compared to _practical_ considerations such as the selection of games
available, our session stake and lifetime bankroll, our enjoyment of the
game, distance from casino, what we can expect to make, long-term, in
full-days of play on advantage machines with or without that promotion,
as well as the various comps we can expect to receive or sacrifice.

I never allow practical considerations to interfere with a good discussion
about theoretical issues. It just isn't academic :wink:

For
instance, even if I had the bankroll to go everyday, I wouldn't drive 3
hours each way to the casino to play just a single game of advantage VP,
even if someone were to prove to me, beyond all doubt, that I would have
the highest possible ER (e.g., by playing an entire session-stake for a
typical day, but in a single $500.00 bet playing max-coin on a
hundred-dollar machine). What would that _really_ be worth? Six hours
of driving, plus the travel expense, isn't worth averaging even a full
10% profit on only $500.00 worth of coin-in (for the math challenged,
with an increase in ER to 110%, the profit would be only $50.00/day).
We could even add a full 1-percent cash-back on my $500.00 coin-in, for
an additional $5.00 cash-back, and the resulting total return of
$55.00/day _still_ wouldn't even cover my travel expenses, let alone my
time. And just try to get a comp doing that; I think you would hear:
"Sir, we can't comp you even a _buffet_ because you have played just _1_
game, for a total of only _8_ seconds worth of play-time and a coin-in
of just $500.00!

I think this is a Strawman argument. You kind always find circumstances
that make it impractical to apply any given theory/method. That doesn't
invalidate the theory/method.

There is a theoretical point, though, where modifying our behavior
because of this promotion could become worthwhile; i.e., it might be
worth changing my plans to go to the casinos on a different day than
planned in order to be there when the promo is available, or to take a
slightly larger bankroll than usual to play a bit longer to reach that
ideal amount of play, or to settle for a little less play than normal
because that is the ideal place to stop, and that sort of thing. If
this promo were available to me, the way I would approach it would be to
look at the various percentage levels with a RoR calculator, such as
Jeff's "Gambler's Ruin" calculator --
http://www.lotspiech.com/GamblersRuin.html -- at the very least, and
then see if I could devise a formula which considers several factors
which are important to me.

You can view any promotion as an opportunity to maximize EV, or to
minimize RoR, or to optimize any other chosen objective.

Now, just out of curiosity, Steve, do you think that the following
statement by quadzilla is valid? -- especially the part about this promo
giving one a chance to play with a _HIGH_ advantage for a decent
_hourly_ return? Quadzilla said: "Just what this adds to your EV is not
clear, but it clearly gives you the chance to play with a high advantage
for a decent hourly return. On JOB, you start with well over a 5% edge
(since there are payouts are higher than even money)." Uhhh ... that's
HIS awkward wording -- not mine.

Yes, I think it is valid. High advantage and decent hourly return imply
nothing about how _long_ you'll be able to maintain that advantage.
Maximizing advantage is a different objective than is maximizing the
total dollar benefit.

[big snip]

PROFIT before travel costs: 67.52 94.37 118.86
        142.54 29.99
after deducting $12.00 travel: 55.52 82.37 106.86
        130.54 17.99
Hours Played plus 2 hrs trvl: /4 /5 /6
            /7 /2
Per Hour ADJUSTED Profit: 13.88 16.47 17.81
         18.65 9.00

Personally, I can't see any "decent hourly return" that quadzilla sees
as being attributable to this particular promo unless his idea is to go
all the way to the casino to gamble perhaps 60 games like I think he
might have suggested.

You left out the impact of taxes and the cost of buying an expensive
gift for your wife to make up for leaving town to gamble instead of fixing
the screen door like you promised. Not the mention losing a couple
of days pay and getting a reprimand from your supervisor at work.

Yes, you can always create a scenario where it isn't practical to take
advantage of this promotion. That does not invalidate the theory. Any
theory has to be evaluated for practicality in terms of the individual
situation. If it is useful, then take advantage of the information. If not,
then don't.

I personally place a high value on understanding special promotions,
because they usually change things so that the normal rules don't
apply. Much more interesting than simply finding the max-EV strategy
for the latest payoff schedule that comes down the pike.

···

On Monday 09 February 2004 05:35 pm, Bill Velek wrote:

> On Sunday 08 February 2004 10:57 pm, Bill Velek wrote:

That was supposed to say "You _can_ always find circumstances...."

My fingers often change the words on me. I hate it when they do that...

···

On Tuesday 10 February 2004 07:13 am, Steve Jacobs wrote:

I think this is a Strawman argument. You kind always find circumstances
that make it impractical to apply any given theory/method. That doesn't
invalidate the theory/method.