vpFREE2 Forums

10/7 DB Progressive at Four Queens

#1

The Four Queens has had quarter 10/7 DB with a progressive for many
years. These machines were always busy, filled with locals mostly,
especially when the progressive was over $1100.

About a year ago or so they updated these machines to TITO. The
appearance of the poker hands had also changed, along with the speed.

I visit Vegas about once a month for 4 or 5 days. When I visited the
Four Queens, the progressives have been in the $1300-$1400 range, the
last couple of months. But there were only one or two people playing
the machines. I would put a Franklin in and it would be gone in quick
order. No quads, certainly no royal. Could it be the locals ran into
the same problem and got tired of losing? Could it be these machines
are not as random as they were before?

#2

No quads, certainly no royal. Could it be the locals ran into
the same problem and got tired of losing? Could it be these

machines

are not as random as they were before?<

It is not likely the machines are gaffed. It would take a real dunce
of a slot director to chance anything like that. I know some players
think slot directors have low intelligence. They do some things that
amaze me also. But really, would any of them try anything that would
jeopardize not only their jobs but possibly their casino's license as
well?

Players often complain when old, slow machines are replaced with
faster machines. They say the new machines don't pay off like the old
ones. They don't understand that through game choice or skill level
they are playing at a negative expectation. Of course, playing more
hands per hour on the new, faster machines will equate to higher
losses.

Don

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobtry2000" <bobtry2000@...> wrote:

#3

> No quads, certainly no royal. Could it be the locals ran into
> the same problem and got tired of losing? Could it be these
machines
> are not as random as they were before?<

It is not likely the machines are gaffed. It would take a real

dunce

of a slot director to chance anything like that. I know some

players

think slot directors have low intelligence. They do some things

that

amaze me also. But really, would any of them try anything that

would

jeopardize not only their jobs but possibly their casino's license

as

well?

Players often complain when old, slow machines are replaced with
faster machines. They say the new machines don't pay off like the

old

ones. They don't understand that through game choice or skill

level

they are playing at a negative expectation. Of course, playing

more

hands per hour on the new, faster machines will equate to higher
losses.

Don

This is a game, where previous to the changes, you had to wait in
line for a seat. Now there is next to no one playing. Game choice
is 10/7 DB, a 100% plus game. Skill level the same for the old and
the new machines.
Maybe everyone is just having the same extended bad luck at the same
time. Or is it something else?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Don Forsythe" <DonBoats@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobtry2000" <bobtry2000@> wrote:

#4

The Four Queens has had quarter 10/7 DB with a progressive for many
years. These machines were always busy, filled with locals mostly,
especially when the progressive was over $1100.

About a year ago or so they updated these machines to TITO. The
appearance of the poker hands had also changed, along with the speed.

I visit Vegas about once a month for 4 or 5 days. When I visited the
Four Queens, the progressives have been in the $1300-$1400 range, the
last couple of months. But there were only one or two people playing
the machines. I would put a Franklin in and it would be gone in

quick

order. No quads, certainly no royal. Could it be the locals ran

into

the same problem and got tired of losing? Could it be these machines
are not as random as they were before?

No, that's not the reason. Walk through a Stations casino at an off
hour and look at the lack of play on the Optimums (with big signs that
say optimum) then look around the rest of the casino. The sucker VP is
getting plenty of action. It's the same at the 4 Queens. If the
masses were not suckers casinos could not exist.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobtry2000" <bobtry2000@...> wrote:

#5

True story - when I first played VP, I thought that the big signs that say optimum were there to mislead people -- so I avoided those machines like the plague. My reasoning, "How could the casinos build the big beautiful buildings if the machines are paying out over 100%? There must be a catch with those machines, so I'm better off playing at other, fairer machines." I really believed that. Now when I think back, I just laugh at myself.
   
  Lainie

···

mickeycrimm <mickeycrimm@yahoo.com> wrote:
  No, that's not the reason. Walk through a Stations casino at an off
hour and look at the lack of play on the Optimums (with big signs that
say optimum) then look around the rest of the casino. The sucker VP is
getting plenty of action. It's the same at the 4 Queens. If the
masses were not suckers casinos could not exist.

__________________________________________________
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#6

I agree with you completely, Mickey. The idea that the machines
were "tinkered" with, when they were changed to TITO is counter
to logical thought.

I have been playing at that 10/7DB prog. since it first appeared at
the 4Q's. I played there lots when the machines were slow old coin-
droppers, when the bank was nearly empty. When the bank was
crowded, I would have guessed that most players were non-local, non-
AP tourists. I have lost all the bankroll I was willing to risk,
while playing there in the "good old days", as well as sometimes
winning.

I also have played at the bank after the TITO conversion. Other than
saving my back, by not having to lug heavy buckets of quarters,
allowing me to retain clean fingers, and to play at more normal
speed (for me) I have noticed absolutely no difference.

Sometimes the bank is crowded, sometimes it's not. Sometimes I win
and sometimes I don't. What else is new? Welcome to the vagaries
of Video Poker.
~Babe~

···

=====================================================================
In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobtry2000" <bobtry2000@> wrote:

The Four Queens has had quarter 10/7 DB with a progressive for the
progressives have been in the $1300-$1400 range, the last couple of
months. But there were only one or two people playing the
machines. I would put a Franklin in and it would be gone in quick
order. No quads, certainly no royal. Could it be the locals ran
into the same problem and got tired of losing? Could it be these
machines are not as random as they were before?

=====================================================================
- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

No, that's not the reason. Walk through a Stations casino at an
off hour and look at the lack of play on the Optimums (with big
signs that say optimum) then look around the rest of the casino.
The sucker VP is getting plenty of action. It's the same at the 4
Queens. If the masses were not suckers casinos could not exist.

#7

Hi, Babe. For those of us who haved played alot of Jacks or Better
going 2000 or 2500 games without a quad is a fairly frequent
occurance. With so much of the payback in the quads at 10/7 (around
15% I think) one is going to get beat up when they hit that dry patch
on quads. But the opposite is cashing a winner when one runs good on
quads. I came up with a royal the last time I played that bank.
It's a fun little no stress affair for me even if I lose. The way
things are going downtown 4 Queens might be the only place they will
see me when I'm in town. Good luck.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@...>
wrote:

I agree with you completely, Mickey. The idea that the machines
were "tinkered" with, when they were changed to TITO is counter
to logical thought.

I have been playing at that 10/7DB prog. since it first appeared at
the 4Q's. I played there lots when the machines were slow old coin-
droppers, when the bank was nearly empty. When the bank was
crowded, I would have guessed that most players were non-local, non-
AP tourists. I have lost all the bankroll I was willing to risk,
while playing there in the "good old days", as well as sometimes
winning.

I also have played at the bank after the TITO conversion. Other

than

···

saving my back, by not having to lug heavy buckets of quarters,
allowing me to retain clean fingers, and to play at more normal
speed (for me) I have noticed absolutely no difference.

Sometimes the bank is crowded, sometimes it's not. Sometimes I win
and sometimes I don't. What else is new? Welcome to the vagaries
of Video Poker.
~Babe~

=====================================================================

In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobtry2000" <bobtry2000@> wrote:

The Four Queens has had quarter 10/7 DB with a progressive for

the

progressives have been in the $1300-$1400 range, the last couple of
months. But there were only one or two people playing the
machines. I would put a Franklin in and it would be gone in quick
order. No quads, certainly no royal. Could it be the locals ran
into the same problem and got tired of losing? Could it be these
machines are not as random as they were before?

=====================================================================

- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@> wrote:

No, that's not the reason. Walk through a Stations casino at an
off hour and look at the lack of play on the Optimums (with big
signs that say optimum) then look around the rest of the casino.
The sucker VP is getting plenty of action. It's the same at the 4
Queens. If the masses were not suckers casinos could not exist.

#8

As an astute video poker player both logical and empirical thoughts and observations are important. That's one of the added values of a group like this , we can freely ( as in vp-free people) ask those questions the casino's don't want us to group discuss like " Has anybody ever won here ? , Do you constantly lose at XYZ casino ?", etc.
Now, as far as the 4Q 10/7 prog, I too have played these since day 1. I've never hit that particular royal, but then again I've only played about 60,000 hands, far short of my 5 Royal cycle suspicion point. Switching to TITO may involve swapping some ROMS on the main processor board, but this should not have ( in theory ) any effect. Added to that, I've historically seen others hit both short coin and full coin royals at these banks. ( but not since the Rom switch, I've only played 10,000 hands since then and have witnessed 0 royals). My suspicion about these machines nowadays, is that the meager points and comps from playing them stink. Oh, the good old days at that place, when they had some really nice and comfortable $1 9/6 Jacks flat tops, with specials on getting four queens.
regards...Tom

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "jackessiebabe"

I agree with you completely, Mickey. The idea that the machines
were "tinkered" with, when they were changed to TITO is counter
to logical thought.

#9

thoughts and observations are important.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tomflush" <tomflush@...> wrote:

As an astute video poker player both logical and empirical

========================================================
I believe that math/science and logic are far more important in
arriving at a sound VP decision (such as where and what to play)
than empirical thoughts, based on what one may "sense" or "believe"
to be a valid hypothesis.

I also think that anecdotal observances, such as "how many players
or royal flushes were obseverved", at a particular bank of machines,
during a certain time frame, are strictly subjective, and possibly
erroneous opinions.

To go to the extreme, after this type of empirical or anecdotal
observation, and than promulgate the opinion that the machine may no
longer be random, is IMO, without merit.

Please don't interpret this to mean that I don't think that every
member of this list has to the right to express his or her opinion
on every subject. I am a VERY strong proponent of free speech in
all areas of life. I am merely expressing MY opinion, that, based
on the original poster's empirical and anecdotal experiences, I
don't think that a strong case has been made to avoid the 4 Queens.
At least not because of the possibility of non-randomness.

I too have played these since day 1. I've never hit that

particular royal, but then again I've only played about
60,000 hands, far short of my 5 Royal cycle suspicion point.

I have personally hit two prog. royals on that bank. The first one
was about 5 years, before the inception of TITO, and totaled
$1197.00. The 2nd one was about 11 months later, and totaled
$1089.00. I have not hit a royal there since the advent of TITO,
nor have I played there much either. In no way does this lead me to
the conclusion that the machines are now "different" in any way.

My suspicion about these machines nowadays, is that the

meager points and comps from playing them stink.

In this respect I agree with you 100%. I rarely play at the 4 Queens
anymore because I'm not interested in either staying or eating
there. Therefore, the comps are useless to me.

Oh, the good old days at that place, when they had some really

nice and comfortable $1 9/6 Jacks flat tops, with specials on
getting four queens.
regards...Tom

Oh yes! I remember those days well! Row upon row of the old 9/6JOB
coin-droppers. I played happily for hours at that relatively
unexciting game. I also loved collecting those cute little gold and
pink tokens that dropped out of the machines from time to time.

Regards,
~Babe~

#10

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@...>
wrote:

>>>>>>>As an astute video poker player both logical and empirical
thoughts and observations are important.

I believe that math/science and logic are far more important in
arriving at a sound VP decision (such as where and what to play)
than empirical thoughts, based on what one may "sense"

or "believe"

to be a valid hypothesis.

I also think that anecdotal observances, such as "how many players
or royal flushes were obseverved", at a particular bank of

machines,

during a certain time frame, are strictly subjective, and possibly
erroneous opinions.

To go to the extreme, after this type of empirical or anecdotal
observation, and than promulgate the opinion that the machine may

no

longer be random, is IMO, without merit.

Several years ago I used to play the bartops on the backbar at the
Western. It was 7/5 Bonus Poker progressive. Royal .75%, 4
Aces .5%, SF .25%, Small quads .25%, Generic quads .25%. I got alot
of plays off the 4 Aces meter. The bank got alot of short coin
action which helped alot.

I noticed that there was usually an off duty employee on the machine
on the far end. Even if there was no play. One day while playing
that particular machine was vacant. The bartender who I had got to
know well told me I should play it. I asked why. He said that
machine had given up more royals than any other.

Well, it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that it had hit
more royals simply because it was getting far more action than any
other machine on the bank. Oblivious as they were they were
fullfilling their own prophecy.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tomflush" <tomflush@> wrote: